How to keep a modal solo from sounding "noodly"

[WJGreer]

I get to record a solo on one of the tracks on the upcoming Fina Dupa CD. There are no changes, though, it's a model solo in A minor. We've been playing the tune out live for a couple of years, and every time I listen to a recording, my solo seems to wander around the key without a lot of melody...it sounds noodly. It's a 32-bar solo.

Short of composing a solo with a few notable hooks in it (which might actually be the answer), does anyone have any tips for keeping modal solos interesting?

[kesslari]

Sing over the changes. Short of composing, just see the kinds of things you like to sing on it, and then play that way.

[ugly_bassplayer]

Transcribe modal solos.
Get some records, paper, pencil & coffee.

Learn the language of the masters.

[Dom Phenom]

Try singing along. That always helps me make soloing, or any playing really, more melodic or lyrical.

EDIT: kesslari beat me to it.

[Gawd]

I agree, sing your solo. I find I usually fall into a noodle trap unless I start singing, than it's instant melody.

[nboyer941]

Originally Posted by ugly_bassplayer

Transcribe modal solos.
Get some records, paper, pencil & coffee.

Learn the language of the masters.

I like this. Can someone give us some youtube examples? Good ones to transcribe? Maybe ones that are not too hard...?

thx.

[MalcolmAmos]

Lot of places I go for answers like this point me to:

1. Follow the melody and embellish from there.
2. Four note phrases - three close notes then a leap of at least a 3rd. What you do after the leap keeps it interesting.
3. If you look at your improv in standard notation you should see some wave action in the notes. No wave action - boring - 20 foot waves - too much.

Wade through the first 30 pages of this book - time well spent IMHO. http://www.archive.org/details/exerc...melo01goetgoog

[ugly_bassplayer]

Originally Posted by nboyer941

I like this. Can someone give us some youtube examples? Good ones to transcribe? Maybe ones that are not too hard...?

thx.

You can start with transcribing all the horn solos on Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. Miles, Trane & Cannonbal.

That should keep busy for quite a while.

[smeet]

+1
Miles' solos on this record are incredibly educational. So few notes, and yet so expressive.

[Skitch it!]

Pentatonics, partials, rhythmic ideas, 3rds, 4th's (in place) 5th's, 6th's, inversions, chromatic tension and release, mix it up?

Most of all phrasing, with vib, slurs etc. Build simply, the feel is in the feel ; )

Bring the frame, remember when you were happy/sad about that thing? Put yourself in the frame and bring it out in feel.

[anonymous122511]

Tell a story with your bass.

[JTE]

Same way you prevent any solo from sounding "noodly". Lock your bass up in its case. Listen to the section over which you're going to solo, a lot of times. Then SING what you think a good solo would be. Record what you sang. Then and only then get your bass out, and learn exactly what you sang. Don't change to make lay better, nor to make it "fit" the mode. Learn it precisely as you sang it.

Repeat as needed, until it feels natural to translate what you hear in your head. This prevents you from letting your fingers lead but forces you to let the music lead you.

Jogn

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by JTE

S
Repeat as needed, until it feels natural to translate what you hear in your head.

What if what's in your head sounds noodley? All this advice to sing is excellent in terms of something to add to your practice regime (the brain/heart-to-hands connection is extremely important to get together) but it's a much overlooked fact that people play what they hear in their heads more than anyone ever wants to admit. I'm not saying singing won't help, it will. I'm saying it may not be the whole issue. If what's in yer head isn't good the solo won't be good.

[Mike Dimin]

1. learn the melody of the song. analyze it's construction
2. Use the melody, phrases sequences, etc from the melody to create a 3 to 4 note motive
3. Develop the motive using sequences, arpeggios, etc
4. Out of your developing motive find another motive and start developing that
5. End your solo by quoting the original parts of your solo to give it a sense of completion
6. End it 2 choruses before you want to, so you do not run out of ideas and start noodling

[Roy Vogt]

I would also think about phrasing in 4 or 8 bar phrases to let the ideas "breathe" a bit. When I see an Am open modal vamp an attractive option is to use Dorian mode (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A) and the diatonic triads and chords that are formed by it (Am-Bm-C-D-Em-F#dim-G-Am or Am7-Bm7-Cmaj7-D7-Em7-F#m7b5-Gmaj7) as starting points for my ideas so they are not so scalar. Another thing that makes the A Dorian sound Dorian is the F#-that's a good note to emphasize as well.
A great bassist to listen to for ideas and inspiration here would be Mark Egan, IMO.

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

I would also think about phrasing in 4 or 8 bar phrases to let the ideas "breathe" a bit. When I see an Am open modal vamp an attractive option is to use Dorian mode (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A) and the diatonic triads and chords that are formed by it (Am-Bm-C-D-Em-F#dim-G-Am or Am7-Bm7-Cmaj7-D7-Em7-F#m7b5-Gmaj7) as starting points for my ideas so they are not so scalar. Another thing that makes the A Dorian sound Dorian is the F#-that's a good note to emphasize as well.
A great bassist to listen to for ideas and inspiration here would be Mark Egan, IMO.

+1

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

1. learn the melody of the song. analyze it's construction
2. Use the melody, phrases sequences, etc from the melody to create a 3 to 4 note motive
3. Develop the motive using sequences, arpeggios, etc
4. Out of your developing motive find another motive and start developing that
5. End your solo by quoting the original parts of your solo to give it a sense of completion
6. End it 2 choruses before you want to, so you do not run out of ideas and start noodling

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

I would also think about phrasing in 4 or 8 bar phrases to let the ideas "breathe" a bit. When I see an Am open modal vamp an attractive option is to use Dorian mode (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A) and the diatonic triads and chords that are formed by it (Am-Bm-C-D-Em-F#dim-G-Am or Am7-Bm7-Cmaj7-D7-Em7-F#m7b5-Gmaj7) as starting points for my ideas so they are not so scalar. Another thing that makes the A Dorian sound Dorian is the F#-that's a good note to emphasize as well.
A great bassist to listen to for ideas
and inspiration here would be Mark Egan, IMO.

Thanks, guys. Excellent advice!

[lintuxvi]

Warning: 2 cents...

I'm lean towards the 'fuzzy-wuzzy'-sounding advice. All those technical descriptions are great, yeah, analysis, super, but they naturally arise from that 'place' where you're actually 'talking bass', singing, telling a story. Technical stuff gets in the bag, but heart and soul pulls it out when they are needed and your brain is quiet, wondering where it call came from...

The transcribing is great advice though, whoever said 'learn the language of the masters', exactly

P.S. Listen to what you're playing while you're playing it, don't judge, and zoom off into the sunset

[JTE]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

What if what's in your head sounds noodley? All this advice to sing is excellent in terms of something to add to your practice regime (the brain/heart-to-hands connection is extremely important to get together) but it's a much overlooked fact that people play what they hear in their heads more than anyone ever wants to admit. I'm not saying singing won't help, it will. I'm saying it may not be the whole issue. If what's in yer head isn't good the solo won't be good.

Well, I did say "Then SING what you think a good solo would be..."

If your ideas are noodly, then you need to listen to a lot of other, better soloists to get better ideas. So, listen to great soloist. That means don't listen to bass soloist, because even the greatest ones are generally not nearly as good as other instruments. Also, don't listen to too many guitarists because most of them aren't really that good either. As much as I love Clapton and Hendrix, they're really not great melodic soloists. For guitarists, the best improvisers would be Mike Stern, Joe Pass, and maybe Howard Roberts.

But listen to horn players- Miles, Dizzy, Bird, Coltrane, Roy Eldridge, Coleman Hawkins, Wayne Shorter, etc. Listen to Ella Fitzgerald scat. Listen to how Frank Sinatra makes a melody his own. Listen to Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Bill Evans on piano. Stephane Grappelli on violin, Toots Theilman on harmonica, etc.

LISTEN and sing along with them. Dig into the phrasing as well as the notes and underlying rhythms. Let all that stuff ferment in your head and use it as reference for great ideas. Listen to melodies all over the place. McCartney probably even farts melodies so listen to Beatles songs. Get the idea of melodies to rattle around in your head.

See, the thing is that no matter how much I believe that people NEED to know harmony and the scales, that stuff doesn't give you ideas. Telling you to think in terms of intervals, chord tones, modes, etc. won't give you melodic ideas. But hearing melodies and singing them gets your brain to go to melodies instead of scales/modes/arpeggios. And that's what the MUSIC is.

John

[plangentmusic]

Telling someone how to be more melodic is like trying to tell someone how to kiss better.

Some things are inate, and somethings require experience. If you want experience being melodic, listen to great melodies -- Beatles, Rachmoninoff, Beethoven, Gershwin -- and then and try writing melodies. It'll evenetually come out in your playing.