HOw strong should the bass be?

[professor_bills]

ok HERE'S THE DEAL. I am primarily a self taught /by ear/ no theory bass player...Over the last couple months I have played with a few different people trying to seek a different avenue of playing. The band I play with now is ok but I just feel like I might want to do something different. The problem I have been having with some guitar players I meet is this...it seems they want me start, hold the song down and end it. Now I know I have a little bit of issue of relying on my drummer and rythm guitars from my other band to keep me in check but should I be able to play a song from start to finish without any help?

[Parabolic Box]

Simple answer? Yes. Every musician (especially if you're a rhythm one like a bassist) needs to have a good sense of rhythm and timing.

-e-

Plus, you're asking a forum full of bassists. Their answer is going to be something to the effect of, "You're supposed to be the best damn musician in the group!"

[nysbob]

Hey - if you're the bassist you have to define the tune.

You have to be the best musician in the group!

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by professor_bills

Now I know I have a little bit of issue of relying on my drummer and rythm guitars from my other band to keep me in check but should I be able to play a song from start to finish without any help?

You're putting us on, aren't you? Some kind of cheeky little ruse?

Every musician in the band ought to be able to play his/her part(s) completely independently of the other musicians - anytime, anywhere, for any reason - if need be. Period.

Nobody should have to rely on anyone else to keep him "in check', or for cues, or to get or keep the correct tempo, or to play in the correct key, or for any other reason. That's what being a good musician means - knowing how to play your instrument without having to depend on anyone else for anything...

MM

[blikeng]

Couldn't agree more with you MysticMichael.

[Marcury]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

You're putting us on, aren't you? Some kind of cheeky little ruse?

Every musician in the band ought to be able to play his/her part(s) completely independently of the other musicians - anytime, anywhere, for any reason - if need be. Period.

Nobody should have to rely on anyone else to keep him "in check', or for cues, or to get or keep the correct tempo, or to play in the correct key, or for any other reason. That's what being a good musician means - knowing how to play your instrument without having to depend on anyone else for anything...

MM

+1,000

Know the form or find another hobby!

[deathbyjune]

people that rely on others to play through a song or, for example, a bass player that cant find/play a groove without a drummer= not a real musician. sorry.

[Foxworthy925]

Originally Posted by deathbyjune

people that rely on others to play through a song or, for example, a bass player that cant find/play a groove without a drummer= not a real musician. sorry.

Hmm, I think there's a difference between a "real musician" and a "real bassist". Some people just aren't cut out for the job.

[landry.bass]

I definately agree that a solid musician and especially bassist should be able to play any song to completion solo. However, I also want to give you some encouragement Professor. Maybe you really do rely on other musicians to keep you going, but I bet you're selling yourself short - trust me, I used to be really good at it myself. Just spend some time practicing the songs on your own. Slower if need be. But definately, if you love playing bass, and want to be primo, you shouldn't have any real trouble playing any of your songs all by your lonesome. Give 'er hell.

[ac1710]

You need to be able to know your part inside out. If you are unsure of timings then change it in some way because it will go wrong on stage.

However their are some circumstances were you need to listen out for cues, i.e. and open solo section. So it is not just a case of playing your part regardless, always listen to what is going on around you and learn to adapt to it.

[landry.bass]

Originally Posted by ac1710

However their are some circumstances were you need to listen out for cues, i.e. and open solo section. So it is not just a case of playing your part regardless, always listen to what is going on around you and learn to adapt to it.

+1

Even if you know your parts, doesn't mean everyone else always will. Be ready to change it up if neccessary.

[Fufumonakyla]

Personally i think not being able to play your part entirely by yourself, does not make someone less of a muscian! At times music is COMPLETLY a group effort. There are parts in some of the songs my band has written, that i cannot play by myself, because i rely so heavily upon what my band mates are doing, and it greatly influences how i play the part! And yes, even in a style as strict as Metalcore, i find it to be best to be able to let yourself be swayed by what the others are doing, making evrything work the same way every time does not do it justice, and to be able to change it slightly depending upon how your drummer hits a cymbal, or if the guitar plays a different note, is deffintly needed! So certain parts are better left unknown, to the point where they can be whatever is needed at anygiven time.

but hey, maybe that is just me

[Matthew Bryson]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Nobody should have to rely on anyone else to keep him "in check', or for cues, or to get or keep the correct tempo, or to play in the correct key, or for any other reason. That's what being a good musician means - knowing how to play your instrument without having to depend on anyone else for anything...

MM

+1

I had an experience where a band mate was "thrown off" by my vocal phrasing, but wasn't sure if I was rushing it or dragging it. They decided that I needed to deliver the line more quickly. It felt weird. We recorded it and I listened back - when I sang that line more quickly, it allowed the whole band to drop one whole beat.

I don't express myself well when working with a group (I need to work on that) I think they sensed my frustration, but didn’t realize what it was that was getting to me - I never said what I wanted to say, which was this: If I have to sing that chorus six times, I don't want to sing it the same way every time - I want to vary the vocal phrasing to keep it from being boring... AND.. how does the vocal phrasing get blamed for people losing the beat? Tap your foot, count, and quit blaming me!

[LowDown Hal]

Originally Posted by professor_bills

ok HERE'S THE DEAL. I am primarily a self taught /by ear/ no theory bass player...Over the last couple months I have played with a few different people trying to seek a different avenue of playing. The band I play with now is ok but I just feel like I might want to do something different. The problem I have been having with some guitar players I meet is this...it seems they want me start, hold the song down and end it. Now I know I have a little bit of issue of relying on my drummer and rythm guitars from my other band to keep me in check but should I be able to play a song from start to finish without any help?

Practice with a Metronome. A LOT.

[Marcury]

Originally Posted by Fufumonakyla

Personally i think not being able to play your part entirely by yourself, does not make someone less of a muscian! At times music is COMPLETLY a group effort. There are parts in some of the songs my band has written, that i cannot play by myself, because i rely so heavily upon what my band mates are doing, and it greatly influences how i play the part! And yes, even in a style as strict as Metalcore, i find it to be best to be able to let yourself be swayed by what the others are doing, making evrything work the same way every time does not do it justice, and to be able to change it slightly depending upon how your drummer hits a cymbal, or if the guitar plays a different note, is deffintly needed! So certain parts are better left unknown, to the point where they can be whatever is needed at anygiven time.

but hey, maybe that is just me

There is a big difference between being flexible in what and how you play and not being able to play a tune without the support of others.

[Human Bass]

What about the cymbal guy of an orchestra? To play his part in the exact moment by himself the guy must have an atomic clock inside him

[Scot]

Yes, it's true and we all know it: the bass player controls the band.

When you're playing with an ensemble, on any instrument, you're either an asset or a liability to the rest of the group. Being an asset means that, at any given time, everyone can rely on you to keep good time and lay it down for everyone, mark where in the tune you are, control the dynamics, etc. Being a liability means that you're relying and not reliable. If the bass player is a liability there's some serious problems.

It can be a tricky business because there are times when you have to be able to fall in tight with the drummer and other times where you have to take charge. There will be times, for example, when someone will make a mistake and you'll have to cover for him/her even though it means compromising what you to believe to be good time or the form of the tune or whatever. The bass players job is to try to make everyone else sound good and that supercedes everything. In any event, you must be able to groove hard through the tune even if everyone else in the band puts down their instruments and leaves.

So the answer to the question is: the bass player needs to be the STRONGEST member of the group.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by Human Bass

What about the cymbal guy of an orchestra? To play his part in the exact moment by himself the guy must have an atomic clock inside him

Everyone follows the conductor in an orchestra so this example is not really that applicable here as my impression is that this is more about playing in an ensemble without a conductor.

[TrevorOfDoom]

Originally Posted by Scot

Everyone follows the conductor in an orchestra so this example is not really that applicable here as my impression is that this is more about playing in an ensemble without a conductor.

you've never been in an orchestra, have you?
some conductors give you a steady tempo and time. others wave the wand based more on feeling and the emotional content of the song.
in other words, some are metronomes, others are barometers, waving the wand in the direction of whichever section or instrument has the melody, or waving wildly when we hit the main theme, and bringing us back down when everything gets quiet.

point is, fact is, unquestionable rule of all musicianship and instrument craft: EVERY MUSICIAN SHOULD HAVE A GOOD SENSE OF RYTHM AND TIMING.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

+1

I had an experience where a band mate was "thrown off" by my vocal phrasing, but wasn't sure if I was rushing it or dragging it. They decided that I needed to deliver the line more quickly. It felt weird. We recorded it and I listened back - when I sang that line more quickly, it allowed the whole band to drop one whole beat.

I don't express myself well when working with a group (I need to work on that) I think they sensed my frustration, but didn’t realize what it was that was getting to me - I never said what I wanted to say, which was this: If I have to sing that chorus six times, I don't want to sing it the same way every time - I want to vary the vocal phrasing to keep it from being boring... AND.. how does the vocal phrasing get blamed for people losing the beat? Tap your foot, count, and quit blaming me!

Sorry, but being a singer first, they are right and you are wrong. A good singer sings somwhere in syncopation with the beat, wether that is right on the beat or behind it, and it should be consistant. You can change your phrasing, but it has to be in the same place in the beat and the same amount of beats and measures, otherwise you are messing up the melody line and the hook, and frankly the song. If you are going to change something it should still fit the same way the last chorus did ( unless of course it's an added part).

In other words you are sloppy and need to listen to them more. A chorus same the same way three times isn't boring, unless it was boring the first time .....its only three times in the song.