I don't know what my technique should be... AKA I'm lost

[Matthew_84]

Hello TBers,

Since I started playing bass roughly 4 years ago now, I plucked the strings with my index and middle fingers, and alternated them, unless I was raking to a lower string.

Recently I started playing with a tone similar to Geddy Lee's and though I always noticed this, the fact that my index and middle fingers sounded different became painfully apparent. My index sound is an awesome "thud" but my middle is an annoying "twang". This sounds the worst on the G string. 1/8ths notes sound like 'thud-twang-thud-twang...etc." Even when I just fret one note on the G and use my middle finger it sounds really tinny and completely out of place. I have worked for days and days trying to make them as even as possible. And though I've improved them, it was only up to a point. I have posted about this before and most peoples responses were that they'll always sound a bit different, and I do agree with this. Though I still don't quite understand why.

Anyways, looking at some Rush videos, I noticed how Geddy Lee played a flamenco style where he uses is index finger like a pick with down and upstrokes. I was intrigued by this, tried it out, and very quickly was able to get even sounded notes and play MUCH quicker than ever before. Playing some Rush songs is now a possibility, which it was never before.

So I ditched the alternating fingers technique altogether and worked solely on this flamenco technique. And to keep my economy of motion at its lowest, if I hit the A string with a downstroke and moved up to the D string, I would hit it with an upstroke. The problem is that upstrokes (for me) only sound good when it hits the flesh and not the nail (I have trimmed my nail down as mush as I could). But after weeks, I can't seem to move to a higher string with an upstroke and guarantee that I only make contact with the fleshy tip. I realized that there is only a small area where this contact is possible and with variables like moving strings, slightly different gap sizes between strings, different gauges of strings, and how the angle of the string changes on where I fret, that I'd never really be able to gain the muscle memory needed to hit the sweet spot everytime.

So I tried to go back and use the best of both worlds. Alternate my fingers jumping from string to string and using the flamenco technique for the rest of the time, but I'm still having the problem where if I move to the G string with my middle it is a very noticeable metallic twang.

I'm so lost, I'm actually a little unmotivated to play, something I haven't been in the last 4 years.

I thought that writing this out may help my brain sort out some of the information and help solve it for me (like it usually does), but it hasn't.

I thought of going to a teacher but I did not have a great experience with one. He insisted that I did his technique which was something I strongly did not agree with, but maybe I'm in a better spot now since I don't like how my technique is.. Scratch that, the only thing I don't like is that my two damn fingers sound so different.

Worst thread ever, I know... Sorry

I don't even know what a good response would be other than "take lessons" or "practise", and normally those have cured my issues, but I don't know think they necessarily will right now.

I don't know.. if anyone has any tips or ideas, I am truly grateful to hear them. And sorry again for this long, runaround thread

[ThudThudThud]

I'm just going to throw out some thoughts here. I am neither qualified to critique, nor to instruct....

* Your first two fingers are different lengths, and have different strengths. Try positioning your plucking hand so that the two sit equally on the strings. Practice some scales alternating the fingers and you'll soon get an idea of the force required by either finger to produce a similar sound. If you're wearing your bass massively low and cool, this might not work. Try a different angle of attack.

* Geddy Lee has been at it much longer than I have, and I'm no spring chicken (). He has developed his style over the years so he can play what he plays. He has his own style. Are you in a Rush tribute/cover band? No? Then you probably don't need to play the way he does.
I noticed at practice last night that in certain songs my band plays have passages with quarter notes that I play with my index finger but with my middle finger supporting it. I've never played like that in my life - but it works for those songs...weird. I guess I've developed my own style based on the songs I'm playing. This is the key. Do you want to be Geddy, or do you want to be you? Practice accordingly.

If something sounds wrong, it probably is. Possibly from a developed bad habit (others will chime in that lessons help..). Only determination, practice, and a little bit of effort and muscle memory will correct that. Roll a bit of tone off and play with a pick...better? Maybe. Just try what works for you, your sound, and your band (if you have one). Are you insisting on playing with your fingers because you think that's how people should play? I was a dedicated fingerstyle player for a long time - because that's the sort of music I was playing. In my new band, I rarely put down the pick (probably an 80/20 split)!

Your profile lists a P-bass. I doubt that you'll get a Geddy sound that way! Embrace the instrument for what it is, or get a Jazz or a Ric to sound like Geddy.
Precisions have a certain voice. You can fight it, or you can embrace it and just be you playing a Precision.
Many have done well just being themselves. There are no rules to break. There's only the opportunity for you to blossom into the best bass player you can be.
There's already a Geddy (well, actually there are thousands...), but there's only one you. Why would a band that's not a Rush band hire you? Just play, and love it.
Your first step was knowing you had an issue with different sounds. The technique of changing that must come from you.
Nobody else has your hands. Nobody else has the sound you hear in your head. Good luck

[Rockmusician]

The strength in your fingers could be what is causing the difference especially if you are trying to play aggressively. Most players spend so much time trying to improve their fretting technique that the forget about their other hand. Keep working at it. Eventually it will come. There are some songs that I only use my index finger. On others, I use 2, 3, or 4 fingers. I even use my thumb occasionally. There is not right or wrong way to play. You should play however is the most comfortable for you.

[Matthew_84]

Thanks a lot guys for your responses. I went outside and walked around and thought about it. And just realized I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself. I bought a decent priced Fender in December and just a couple of months ago spent about $1500 on my first rig. The cabinet has still not arrived yet but is due in the next week or so. I was hoping that when it came in that I would be ready to play with a band, and this has caused a lot of pressure on me to be as great as I can be.

First of all, I am such a perfectionist that I am never happy with my technique. I always notice something that is never perfect and I work and work and work on it until either it's perfect or I accept it for how it is. I think a lot of musicians are like this, this is how we improve after all. I'm sure Geddy Lee is still improving his technique.

And no, I'm not in a Rush band, but I do aspire to play alot of their songs, but they just seem so far from my ability right now, it's down-right sickening. How he plays some of the stuff amazes me. Some of it is just so fast, and completely out of my league, and that's why I've looked at his technique as something to emulate.

I don't know. I think I just need to relax and have fun again.

Also, I've trimmed my index nail down so damn far that it's uncomfortable to play with. So yeah, I think I need to take a break for a day or two and just figure out what my goals are and start from scratch.

Thanks a ton guys

[ShredderMaximus]

I would recommend something I saw in one of Billy Sheehans videos. Bend your fingers so they are at a 90 degree angle at the second knuckle. Then staying in that position, rest your fingertips on a hard stable surface, so that the shape is almost like a lower case "h" on its side, with the long part of the "h" as the surface, per se. Now try to move this shape to your bass. It'll be pretty stiff feeling for awhile, but if you can keep that shape, you will effectively be playing from your second knuckle, which helps keep your fingers at an equal length in respect to plucking, and even help you play a bit faster with less fatigue since your fingers movement arc is greatly reduced.

(Sorry, I really hope this makes sense...)

[Mayers]

You know that you don't need to emulate what other pro does because sometimes they have serious issues in their technic IMO.

I think the most important thing to do, is to see where you are right now and what your goal is, then what you have to work on to achieve your goal.

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by ShredderMaximus

I would recommend something I saw in one of Billy Sheehans videos. Bend your fingers so they are at a 90 degree angle at the second knuckle. Then staying in that position, rest your fingertips on a hard stable surface, so that the shape is almost like a lower case "h" on its side, with the long part of the "h" as the surface, per se. Now try to move this shape to your bass. It'll be pretty stiff feeling for awhile, but if you can keep that shape, you will effectively be playing from your second knuckle, which helps keep your fingers at an equal length in respect to plucking, and even help you play a bit faster with less fatigue since your fingers movement arc is greatly reduced.

(Sorry, I really hope this makes sense...)

Like a floating thumb and anchoring thumb ???

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by ShredderMaximus

I would recommend something I saw in one of Billy Sheehans videos. Bend your fingers so they are at a 90 degree angle at the second knuckle. Then staying in that position, rest your fingertips on a hard stable surface, so that the shape is almost like a lower case "h" on its side, with the long part of the "h" as the surface, per se. Now try to move this shape to your bass. It'll be pretty stiff feeling for awhile, but if you can keep that shape, you will effectively be playing from your second knuckle, which helps keep your fingers at an equal length in respect to plucking, and even help you play a bit faster with less fatigue since your fingers movement arc is greatly reduced.

(Sorry, I really hope this makes sense...)

This sounds interesting. I will try it out in the next couple of days. It almost sounds like I'd tickle the strings from underneath. Never heard of that before, but I am intrigued.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by Mayers

Like a floating thumb and anchoring thumb ???

From what I got out of it, it seems like the second image is closer to what he's talking about. When I played alternating fingers, I did floating thumb, and kept my fingers fairly straight but with a slight curve. This technique has a pretty drastic curve, and I do like the floating thumb technique so I'd like to try it, but have my thumb far out to the side (like I'm making an L) so that it still mutes the lower strings but doesn't get in the way.

[Matthew_84]

This is the second knuckle right?

Sorry Mayers for jacking your image and then vandalizing it

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

This is the second knuckle right?

Sorry Mayers for jacking your image and then vandalizing it

No prob man and yeah it is. For me this position was very natural and on 6 strings it is very useful for muting all lower strings.

[Matthew_84]

Yeah I just checked out a Billy Sheehan video on youtube (YouTube - ‪Bass lesson - Billy Sheehan - 3/8‬‏) where he talks about this very thing. Interesting... And looking forward to trying it out.

Thanks guys

[ShredderMaximus]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Thanks guys

No prob man! Never thought of thumb position for it though, though I do use a bit of a moving anchor, goin between the pickup, E, and occasionally (if I know I'll be up there for a bit) the A string. And I apologize, I shoulda added a link to the vid in my first post, but didn't even think of it!

[bluesdogblues]

Yes I think about that different sound from different fingers too like the OP, but I'm the reverse, my index finger sounds twangier than my middle finger. Sometime I even thought of using only the middle because I like it's sound more, but it has less control than the index.
So instead of getting crazy because of being perfectionist about them, I try not to think too much about it and try to accept the fact of them the way they are.
Also I found that different angle of the fingers in striking the strings can minimize the difference. I practice that but in real playing situation it tends to be forgotten.

I discussed this with my guitarist friend and he gave me his opinion that I shouldn't worry about it too much since it's already my 'trade mark' and that it doesn't sound bad anyway.
So I check all the records I made and yes I find them allright.

Now, for last few years, if I play for recording session, I use my thumb (all down stroke) mainly cause I like it best, and the sound is even too .. but it has less accuracy and speed than alternate index-middle, so I'll still use alternate when the song demand accuracy and speed that my thumb alone can't handle.

That's my experience.
the point is IMHO don't be too worry, don't be too perfectionist about it. Index finger will sound different than Middle finger anyway. You can learn to minimize the difference, but there are much more important to think about in music, else than that.

Just my 2 cents.

[basscamel 420]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hello TBers,

Since I started playing bass roughly 4 years ago now, I plucked the strings with my index and middle fingers, and alternated them, unless I was raking to a lower string.

Recently I started playing with a tone similar to Geddy Lee's and though I always noticed this, the fact that my index and middle fingers sounded different became painfully apparent. My index sound is an awesome "thud" but my middle is an annoying "twang". This sounds the worst on the G string. 1/8ths notes sound like 'thud-twang-thud-twang...etc." Even when I just fret one note on the G and use my middle finger it sounds really tinny and completely out of place. I have worked for days and days trying to make them as even as possible. And though I've improved them, it was only up to a point. I have posted about this before and most peoples responses were that they'll always sound a bit different, and I do agree with this. Though I still don't quite understand why.

Anyways, looking at some Rush videos, I noticed how Geddy Lee played a flamenco style where he uses is index finger like a pick with down and upstrokes. I was intrigued by this, tried it out, and very quickly was able to get even sounded notes and play MUCH quicker than ever before. Playing some Rush songs is now a possibility, which it was never before.

So I ditched the alternating fingers technique altogether and worked solely on this flamenco technique. And to keep my economy of motion at its lowest, if I hit the A string with a downstroke and moved up to the D string, I would hit it with an upstroke. The problem is that upstrokes (for me) only sound good when it hits the flesh and not the nail (I have trimmed my nail down as mush as I could). But after weeks, I can't seem to move to a higher string with an upstroke and guarantee that I only make contact with the fleshy tip. I realized that there is only a small area where this contact is possible and with variables like moving strings, slightly different gap sizes between strings, different gauges of strings, and how the angle of the string changes on where I fret, that I'd never really be able to gain the muscle memory needed to hit the sweet spot everytime.

So I tried to go back and use the best of both worlds. Alternate my fingers jumping from string to string and using the flamenco technique for the rest of the time, but I'm still having the problem where if I move to the G string with my middle it is a very noticeable metallic twang.

I'm so lost, I'm actually a little unmotivated to play, something I haven't been in the last 4 years.

I thought that writing this out may help my brain sort out some of the information and help solve it for me (like it usually does), but it hasn't.

I thought of going to a teacher but I did not have a great experience with one. He insisted that I did his technique which was something I strongly did not agree with, but maybe I'm in a better spot now since I don't like how my technique is.. Scratch that, the only thing I don't like is that my two damn fingers sound so different.

Worst thread ever, I know... Sorry

I don't even know what a good response would be other than "take lessons" or "practise", and normally those have cured my issues, but I don't know think they necessarily will right now.

I don't know.. if anyone has any tips or ideas, I am truly grateful to hear them. And sorry again for this long, runaround thread

I pretty sure Geddy grew his finger nails out a bit and that's how he got his tone. I have also been told he used a little bit of distortion...if you don't like the way your fingers sounds then use a pick. I myself am not a pick player j think it's hard as he'll to keep tour wrist moving like a metronome .....I think it's cool when ppl have thier own unique tone or sound so maybe what your doing is a good thing. Ya dig?

[Matthew_84]

Yeah, I certainly understand what you guys are saying. When I play with a deeper and cleaner tone the sound difference is actually alright or not too noticeably different, but when I switch to the "Geddy Tone" and I crank the high mids, treble, and distortion, the sound difference is unbearable. Maybe that tone simply isn't right for me, but I don't think that's the answer. I don't want to exclude tones because of my technique.

As for shifting my hand position, I have the bass kind of high, and when I've tried to change the angle to make it work, I had a ridiculous angle in my wrist.

Next time I play I'll try raising the head stock to help out with the angle, also try messing around with my strap lengths. And I'm still curious about that Billy Sheehan technique so I'll try that as well.

Thanks again

[Russell L]

I've often said that I could get by with a 3-string bass because my G-string quacks so much when I pluck it. But, what I've learned to do is to play a tad on the side of my fingers when I get on it, to soften it some. I do it automatically now. Also, I play with my nails and have to lower the high mids a tad to soften everything. I still want the nail sound, but not too bright. But then, when we all get to playing I find I'm back to playing with the eq set flat in order to cut through the mix.

Some of the quack you're hearing on your G-string isn't noticeable in a mix. Thing is, don't worry so much. Try rolling your wrist forward a bit toward the neck so that you are picking the strings more like you would on an upright and see if that helps.

[Matthew_84]

Okay guys, so I decided to just keep playing alternating fingers, as it's the most comfortable for me, and my little stint doing the flamenco plucking somehow allowed me to play much faster while alternating plucking to a point that I'm satisfied with.

BUT... I cannot have my two fingers sound even no matter what I do. I put the bass on an angle to match the difference in length between my index and middle, and while keeping my fingers straight I'd hit the strings with the same part of each finger (kind of the side of the tip), and the thud/twang sound difference was still there. This eliminates any argument for finger length, curvature, or even callouses, since I was hitting the string with a part of my finger that I never have before.

Then I tried the Billy Sheehan technique (bending the second knuckles), and again the sound difference was still there.

I tried to play like an upright players with using the softer sides of my fingers and it's still there.

Then I thought, well surely it's the power I use to attack the strings. I've spent hours trying different combinations. I thought that the middle may have been a bit stronger which I thought was causing it, so I lightened the touch only on that finger and all it did was quiet the note, but the metal twang is still there. I thought maybe it was because my middle is closer to the bridge that it sounds more trebly, so I moved my fingers back and forth to compensate. Even drastic movements don't seem to have much of an impact. I have EQ'd my tone to sound more bassy and not much treble and it's still there.

Is there anything else that I can try or do I simply have to live with this one? Can someone explain to me why two fingers will always sound different? This could shed some light. I'm completely perplexed. I've tried every logical solution and nothing has changed.

Thanks so much for any insight.

P.S. I know a pick may be the answer, but I just love the tone and feel of my fingers (well I guess the tone of my index finger to be specific)

[Lackey]

Matthew - I can't explicitly tell you how to fix your issue, but some years back I had a bit of a problem myself. Not explicitly with tone per se, but with the physical demands of trying to bend the wrist to such a degree as to allow the index and middle fingers to both be relatively straight while plucking the strings. Because the middle finger is quite a bit longer, it put me into this type of wrist position:

http://www.rolandus.com/images/commu...ona/Bona_1.jpg

http://www.davegrossman.net/solobass...reight-big.jpg

At the age of 20 or so I was beginning to notice wrist pain after playing for longer periods, and figured that couldn't be a good sign in any way.

NOW, at the same time I was getting into ramps and using my thumb ala Matt Garrison. I found that when in the wrist-bent position it was extremely awkward adding my thumb into the mix with downstrokes. So, I began watching Garrison, Dominique Di Piazza and Gary Willis videos closely to see how they deal with shifting techniques:

http://www.basssouthwest.com/images/namm08/8.jpg

http://www.emi-school.com/Dominique%20Di%20Piazza.jpg

http://www.topfloormusic.com/keyword..._Willis_18.JPG

I found that these guys keep their wrists nearly perfectly straight while playing most of the time, and don't attempt to keep their fingers perpendicular to the strings. I began experimenting with this system, and found that not only does it allow the thumb to be used freely, but my wrist pain disappeared. While doing standard 2 finger playing, my middle finger is by necessity curved much more while plucking the same string as the index, but this turned out to be a non-issue for both tone and strain. I think possibly because my middle finger has more "meat" at the end; so bending it more causes the area closer to the nail to strike the string, more closely matching my slightly thinner index finger. I also found that it is very easy to extend my middle finger to the string above to grab higher notes.

Anyways, I can't help you get Geddy's tone, but this is just a random thought from my experience. Good luck!

[Matthew_84]

You're a genius! My middle finger also has much more meat on it than my index and that very well is the cause of my tonal differences. Even with the sides of my fingers, the middle is a lot fatter. And now that I'm paying close attention the tip of my index is much sharper than the middle.

I'm relieved now. There is absolutely nothing I can do to cure this, except liposuction on my fat ass finger. I just need to play on and forget. I also actually moved my pick-up closer to the G string and played with a lighter touch on the G, which seemed to help a bit.

My G string sounds pretty metallic in general which can be annoying and it surely isn't helping this issue. But then again while I wait for my GK 410MBE to arrive, I am playing through a 10 watt guitar amp which may be voiced in a way to accentuate this twang.

Anyways, thanks a lot... Everyone