improv

[zaxroom]

hey guys sorry to bother everyone but i need some help with improve and a way to improve on my improv skills got any suggestions?

[OtterOnBass]

I did a research on the history of Jazz, which was supposed to be music created spontaneously by the musicians. They were following the chords of a song, but their individual parts were improvised. One author (sorry don't have my references with me) thought that there was no true improvising or live experimenting with the good musicians. They had already played every riff, melody, everything before the performance. It wasn't in the same form, but they had played that cool arpeggio and remembered it's sound. Later, when in the middle of the song, when the arpeggio would fit perfectly, they play it.

So improv is actually playing from memory. Bottom line, practice. Play as many musical phrases as you can, and build up your improv memory.

[zaxroom]

kool dude thats a great reaserch, if you ever remember sources plz let me know

[uturnbass]

Honestly dude, the best practice with improv is to just jam with other musicians.
What helped me with improv though is this:

Chords- learn what an Emin chord is. What notes make this chord up? What notes would outline or sound good... in this chord.
E G B would be the triad. A lick with that G (which signifies that it's a minor) would sound great.
But if you played a G under an E Major it would clash badly!
So knowing what notes work, and dont work helps ALOT.

Scales- The pentatonic and minor pentatonic are great scales. Easy to remember and apply all over the fretboard. Learning these in different positions up and down the fretboard in multiple octaves open up a wide range of possibilities.
Not just pentatonic, but major/minors and their modes are great too.

Listen- Listen to a lot of music. Find an influence that you admire, and begin to copy some of his licks and add to your arsenal. Then when you start jamming you can hear licks in your head that you could use.
Humming bass lines while listening helps with remembering.

Hope that helps man,
it certainly did for me.

[zaxroom]

ya there is some good stuff in there, the only problem is i want to get better at improve so i can jam with ppl and not sound like a fool

[uturnbass]

lol well bud,
we all have to start somewhere!
I'm sure I sounded like a fool when I first tried. But I started to learn what does, and doesn't fit and it begin to stick in my head and then I started to favor certain licks... and then I would favor more and continue to grow until you dont even have to think about it.

For a jam session...
if you're worried, stick with the root and the kick drum.
Groovin out the root can sound SO good sometimes!
Then when you gain confidence throw in some octave licks....

expand on the licks...

oouch... that sounded bad... remember not to do that again...

lets try this one...
ooh nice, that one came out well. I'll do it again in the next measure.. etc.


Remember, just learn from your mistakes. Dont let it discourage you! Just have fun man, thats what its all about...

[uturnbass]

oh and btw...
those tips I posted earlier ARE ways to help improve!

when you get bored, look up some triad/chord music theory.
Learn a scale backwards and forwards.
Find a song you like and transpose it lick by lick with your ear.
and play with musicians, a lot!

Your improv will improve... just give it time and experience

[cheesemonkey]

I havn't got into a load of improv yet on my bass but i always do it with our drummer before we start to practicing on my saxophone. Pretty much just recognize the key your in and stay in the key for the most part there are a couple of places where you can go outside but don't think about what your playing next just play what you think fits. For a bass i'd say start by memorizing a good deal of the fret board and start learning scales. Scales and fret board are the best thing for improv (and not just scales as in the form for playing them but the keys they are in and the notes in that key located on the fret board) but mostly just go with what you feel is right. You can even just play a scale changing durations of notes here and there and it can sound good just play with feeling only thinking about the key.

[j.a.e.r.i.p]

i would first and foremost learn all of the modes two octaves, all keys, and then i would work on reading chords and knowing which scales correspond to which chords. and once you learn the basic rules and get a decent understanding, it's time to start breaking them haha. The b5 is my baby when it comes to improvising, and if you learn to recognize how a chord sounds from looking at it, you could pretty much squeeze in any note over any chord if you know what you're doing.

[ibanezshredder]

4 things I use when improving.

Chords

Scales

Modes

And My Ear

I think having a good ear is the most important and just knowing your instrument so well that ur hands just go where u neeed to go right away.. Unfortunatly those skills just come with time.

So my best advice is, learn ur theory, transcribe as many songs as possible, improv with ur band mates, improv on ur own play with different musicians.

[Blankwall]

I pretty much jst listen and pay rythms that i play when im by myself pratice with lots of muscians honestly i dont even realy know the scales i know basically what derives every scale but dont actually knw any i dont know man just have fun

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by uturnbass

So knowing what notes work, and dont work helps ALOT.

Would just like to point out that this is to be taken with a grain of salt, sometimes that note that you know Won't Work might be exactly the note you're looking for.


But he's right, it's all about understanding why you're playing it, whether your understanding is "this sounds cool" or "my guitarist is about to shift to the phygerian mode, I better play this."

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

So improv is actually playing from memory. Bottom line, practice. Play as many musical phrases as you can, and build up your improv memory.

I don't totally disagree with your post, since it's true that a few of the jazz greats out there were known to only be able to play in 4 or 5 keys, and repeatedly played the same licks with only slight alterations.

I think it is more accurate to say that jazz musicians have a bag of licks, favorite phrases, and tons of memorized jazz melodies that they can fall back on, or use as a spring board into fresh ideas. My favorite jazz soloists are the ones who are always reaching for that next note.

For the OP, there are some resources about improvisation if you look at the *STICKIED* posts, under the General Instruction Tab.

I can't remember who said it, but Improvisation is just Composition, speeded up.

[zaxroom]

wow guys, you are great. the advice is definitely helping... i was just messing around by myself and i got bored of playing things i already knew so i started changing it up. i was just having fun and putting in notes to a beat of a random song. if i were to google modes and chords what would i look for? with my scales i know like scale patterns like i know how to play a blues scale anywhere on the neck and a major and minor but idk what you exactly mean by keys and things like that... only resantly have i learned sheet music and the notes on the fret board but i am still a little confused if someone would be kind and clear that up for me plz thx a lot for all the help already and thx in advance
-Zack

[HaVIC5]

I don't totally disagree with your post, since it's true that a few of the jazz greats out there were known to only be able to play in 4 or 5 keys, and repeatedly played the same licks with only slight alterations.

Haha, yeah, that's true. Mingus once wrote a tune in F#, and his entire band refused to play it in the original key. Mingus, a man known for getting what he wanted most of the time, was forced to transpose it up to G. It's only in recent years with jazz education becoming so prominent has there been the emphasis on practicing in 12 keys.

[BryanM]

Originally Posted by zaxroom

ya there is some good stuff in there, the only problem is i want to get better at improve so i can jam with ppl and not sound like a fool

What better place to sound like a fool than with other fools. My dad probably gave me some of the best advice I've ever gotten: Don't wait until you're too old to enjoy it to stop caring what other people think.

He also told me to never worry about making an a$$ of yourself in good company, eventually others will join in and make an a$$ of themselves too.

[zaxroom]

Originally Posted by BryanM

What better place to sound like a fool than with other fools. My dad probably gave me some of the best advice I've ever gotten: Don't wait until you're too old to enjoy it to stop caring what other people think.

He also told me to never worry about making an a$$ of yourself in good company, eventually others will join in and make an a$$ of themselves too.

thats true but i am not usaly woryed about that i just get frustrated when i dont do well

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by BryanM

What better place to sound like a fool than with other fools. My dad probably gave me some of the best advice I've ever gotten: Don't wait until you're too old to enjoy it to stop caring what other people think.

He also told me to never worry about making an a$$ of yourself in good company, eventually others will join in and make an a$$ of themselves too.

That's brilliant advice.

I had to move 2500 miles away from family and friends for a fresh start to figure it out. Don't know why, I just couldn't loosen up. Then again, maybe it was age that fostered it along..

Anyway, all the advice here is good advice, but most importantly you need to be daring and unafraid to screw up to move forward in a jam/improv situation.

Monk

[cheapbasslovin]

You'll only look like a fool if you don't improve, and don't acknowledge you are still learning.

Play, cringe, adjust, ROCK!!!!!
Have fun doing it.

[RobinBetton]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

I did a research on the history of Jazz, which was supposed to be music created spontaneously by the musicians. They were following the chords of a song, but their individual parts were improvised. One author (sorry don't have my references with me) thought that there was no true improvising or live experimenting with the good musicians. They had already played every riff, melody, everything before the performance. It wasn't in the same form, but they had played that cool arpeggio and remembered it's sound. Later, when in the middle of the song, when the arpeggio would fit perfectly, they play it.

So improv is actually playing from memory. Bottom line, practice. Play as many musical phrases as you can, and build up your improv memory.

well, this definitely could be considered one way to approach improvisation. It's definitely a way that I wouldn't take to improvisation and i would be interested to know where you got the textbook definition of jazz. Although there are many great musicians that have internalized certain vocabulary that makes them sound like "them", improvisers such as ornette coleman and albert ayler, derek bailey, etc... have definitely made different approaches to improvisation more apparent to the mainstream. Believe it or not jazz did not end in the late 50's. People were and still are conceptualizing different approaches to improvising and FORM. Leaving the AABA tin pan alley type of playing and using concepts from classical composers and mixing it with american jazz and indian music etc... One could say Ornette takes musicians from A-Z. definitely check out how he interacts with musicians. One could start with Live at the Hillcrest club record (actually Paul Bley's group at the time). Wayne Shorter's great and his group right now is pretty cool. Studying Ornette's harmolodic approach may be very helpful in feeling comfortable in improvising. Learning vocabulary and how great improvisers approach things is very helpful but i'd say concerning oneself with expressing themselves with clarity and intent is more important than playing vocabulary phrases. Questions like, "is what i'm doing making me happy" and "what can I do to express how I feel" and really really really thinking about how you can achieve that. (maybe do some writing in a journal?) And hey, even if you think you don't know a lot, think about what you do know and how you can use that to express yourself within a context. EVEN IF IT'S JUST ONE NOTE. Who says you can't take texture into account when playing one note? what about duration of the one note? Listening and interacting with people who make you feel something is greatly helpful. believe it or not if the goal is to express yourself with clarity and depth sitting in a practice room for days on end may not help! A balance is good. If you don't have any experiences to express then what is the point?And if you're jamming with people and you make a mistake improvising, who cares? make that mistake sound good. make it sound good in the context you're in. This topic would definitely be a good one to discuss.