Improving timing/working with a drummer

Sausainis · #1 03-14-2011, 01:02 PM

This weekend i was offered an audition for bass player place in an original prog. rock band, with very experienced musicians. Obviously i did not pass, i already knew i would not when i went there as i am selftought with 2 year exp. However, i wanted to see how they would rate my actual level of play.

And man, I suck. Even tho I do practice with metronome(at home, i usually play with guitar pro + metronome in it), i could not sinchronize with drummer's bass drum. Obiviously i was somewhat nervous, but anyways: how can i improve my "tightness" with drummer?

P.S. Getting tutor is out of my budget.

chrisjb · #2 03-14-2011, 01:38 PM

I'm not that familiar with guitar pro, but could you try turning off everything but the drums and practice that way? Then once proficient there, start adding back the other instruments? I have the Fender BDEC, and they make it a point to recommend doing that from time to time.

mambo4 · #3 03-14-2011, 02:08 PM

Learn to read/write rhythmic notation. It has a tremendous clarifying effect on your grasp of rhythm.

Omer · #4 03-15-2011, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisjb

I'm not that familiar with guitar pro, but could you try turning off everything but the drums and practice that way? Then once proficient there, start adding back the other instruments? I have the Fender BDEC, and they make it a point to recommend doing that from time to time.

I am familiar with Guitar Pro, and I second chrisjb.

My suggestion - leave the metronome out of it. I'm no professional, and self-taught myself, but I don't really like it. When you play music you don't play with a drummer who hits 4 bars boom-boom-boom-boom, so don't bother being at synch with a metronome. If you do it for 2 years and it doesn't help you - drop it. It's probably good for beginners and/or people who have trouble grasping the whole concept of time signatures, but I don't see the point of sticking to it.

I suggest listening to the song you're trying to play, and noticing the bass and the drum tracks together.
A nice easy example for this concept would be Know Your Enemy by RATM. Listen to the intro - and time the slap according to the drums. It's much easier than playing without anything, or even with a metronome, I believe.

Take in account that playing according to a metronome is kind of robotic. Music is not to be played strictly according to these metrical beats. Sometimes you just want to pluck the string 1/27th of a bar before the next tick.

brammerd · #5 03-15-2011, 12:39 AM

Learn to read rhythm, it is essential.
Over time you will 'hear' rhythms like you hear pitches where every kind of rhythm has its own sound.

Practise with a metronome.
Focus on macrotiming by leaving some clics out. Ex. only a click on beat 4 or even only a click on beat 4 every few measures.

Also focus on microtiming where you can FEEL every sixteenth and switch between a straight and swing feel.

Years of work right here.

Play some funk too

Funkmaster87 · #6 03-15-2011, 12:47 AM

A little advice that may help you: u can play the root note when the kick hits and an octave or 5th when the snare hits. To accent it. When I started playing with a drummer I used this then built upon it. Ghost notes also help and playing muted rhythms with the drummer will help u play more smoothy together as well. Hope this helps

Omer · #7 03-15-2011, 03:07 AM

Okay, I take my advice back, brammerd probably knows how to work with a metronome better than me

But I think the key is to learn all the instruments in a song, to the point where you know that after a certain chord, for instance, you enter. Look for "clues" in the song. I personally just visualise every instrument automatically, but I'm synesthetic and have that kind of mathemathical look at things, and paying attention to small details, so you can say that I'm natural with timing and rhythm.
(Sorry if I sound arrogant - I actually lack minimal skill at most other aspects of music and playing...)

Again, I don't want to contradict people telling you to use a metronome, but if you can't "imagine" a metronome at some point, I think it's useless. Try to play without it, and record yourself. It won't be perfect? So what. Get back to the metronome, but every once in a while record yourself without it. You need to predict the metronome ticks IMO.
So, really, not telling you to put the metronome in the trash - but try to work with it only as a means of being better without it. Once you master a track with it, record yourself without it and see how right you get it.

BassChuck · #8 03-15-2011, 08:44 AM

A lot of good advice here. But don't overlook your own technique. If you can't get to a note on time because of faulty technique or hand postition of whatever, it will show up as a time problem in your playing. The difference between playing 'in the pocket' or with good time, or however you say it is only a matter of a very small measure on time. To play with good time and good feel you have to have the musical knowledge and taste to know what you need to play, and the physical technique to put every note where it belongs.

Nev375 · #9 03-15-2011, 09:01 AM

Sometimes it may not be you.

I've run across a LOT of drummers who simply cannot keep accurate time. Still, you can lock in with them anyway by using your eyes and paying attention to the way they do their thing. With time and practice you will get a feel for their errors and you can make the band sound better than they actually are.

Not surprisingly, It's usually the bands with bad drummers who think that good bassists are a very rare commodity.

What DOES surprise me is good guitarists and vocalists who are with these drummers who think they are amazing because of all the drum fills or unusual beats they play.

Billnc · #10 03-15-2011, 09:12 AM

You did the right thing, no fear of failure and you wanted to see where you are and need to work on.

Read rhythms and tap your foot when you play. Play with the metronome on 2 and 4. Simply put the metronome at 1/2 speed and start counting in on a click and 2.

You probably don't suck, and with what seems like a cool attitude and desire to learn even if you do suck at bass it won't last long! 2 years is not long, fusion is tough. Keep playing with other players, playing simple music.

Herbie 80's · #11 03-15-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billnc

You did the right thing, no fear of failure and you wanted to see where you are and need to work on.

Read rhythms and tap your foot when you play. Play with the metronome on 2 and 4. Simply put the metronome at 1/2 speed and start counting in on a click and 2.

You probably don't suck, and with what seems like a cool attitude and desire to learn even if you do suck at bass it won't last long! 2 years is not long, fusion is tough. Keep playing with other players, playing simple music.

I wouldn't tap my foot. Timing comes from inside. Learn to count time and subdivide time like mad. If you rely on the drummer to be a metronome, you'll always be off time. You have to be your own metronome.

Billnc · #12 03-15-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herbie 80's

I wouldn't tap my foot.

I don't know how many top level players are an advocate for that one.

LennyPenny · #13 03-16-2011, 05:52 AM

First of all, good job on going for it anyway!
About rhythm: Guitar Pro tabs with everything but the drums turned off sounds like a great idea and I agree with BassChuck that technique is essential for rhythm.

As for what I can personally recommend: something that has helped me improve my rhythm is just listening to whatever music and figuring out that basic rhythm. Once you've got the feel of that, you can try adding more complex beats (not necessarily the same as what the drummer is playing) using whatever apendix of your body feels natural.
This is probably going to be a slow proces but eventually you'll be tapping both hands, feet, fingers, etc. at the same time.
My apologies if my explanation doesn't make much sense, English isn't my native language

Good luck!!

LennyPenny · #14 03-16-2011, 06:28 AM

Just thought of this: maybe it's not really an option for you since a tutor is out of the question, but you might consider getting an effects mixer like a Korg Pandora. It has 100 (I think) preset drum patterns to jam along with. It's 95 euros at Music Store, Germany, don't know how much it is where you're from, but I reckon it's about the same.
You can also use it as a headphone amp, which is why I've been looking into it myself.
I hope this helps.

echoSE7EN · #15 03-16-2011, 06:33 AM

A used drum machine shouldn't cost more than $100 - 175. I have an Alesis SR-18, and love it. I bought mine new, but have since seen them in the higher end of the aforementioned scale.

AmadeusXeno · #16 03-16-2011, 07:14 AM

While locking in with the bass drum is important it's not always the thing to focus on. Listen to what the drummer is doing. Sometimes to stay in time I lock in with the snare or one of the cymbols. It all depends on what the drummer is doing for a part of the song. When you listen carefully you'll notice (if the drummer has good timing) that one piece of the kit will be going like a metranome for you. Just listen to what you have to. I always ignore the vocals, focus on the rythim guitar to stay in key, and the drums to stay in time. If there is lead guitar in the band I ignore that too since it's not important to what I'm doing on the bass. If you have a drummer friend practicing with them will help greatly. If not use a drum machine.