Intonation on a fretless

Smallmouth_Bass · #1 12-05-2006, 06:08 PM

I was thinking of taking the frets out of one of my basses and putting an epoxy coating on the neck (like the Pedulla Buzz basses). I love that mega-mwah sound! My question is, is it harder to play in tune on a fretless coated neck than on a straight wood neck?

jvbjr · #2 12-05-2006, 06:48 PM

Epoxy has no affect on intonation. As you learn to play fretless you will learn that as you move higher up the neck, your finger progressively migrates towards the nut with each note. What I mean is, at the 5th fret you will be in tune when the line is cutting your finger tip in half, on the 15th fret you will only have a smidge of finger near the line to be in tune. Best advice is practice with a tuner always, keep checking yourself, it takes years!

Brad Johnson · #3 12-05-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smallmouth_Bass

I was thinking of taking the frets out of one of my basses and putting an epoxy coating on the neck (like the Pedulla Buzz basses). I love that mega-mwah sound! My question is, is it harder to play in tune on a fretless coated neck than on a straight wood neck?

Might actually be easier on a harder surface.

Smallmouth_Bass · #4 12-05-2006, 09:16 PM

Yeah, I was thinking that because a harder surface will have a brighter sound, intonation inconsistencies will be more noticeable as opposed to a more woody/bassy organic sound. Kind-of like playing an upright with the fingers vs. playing with a bow.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #5 12-05-2006, 09:24 PM

I've owned both. I've found you get a more growly mwah from an unfinished board (as you surmised), and small inconsistencies are better hidden this way. That doesn't make it any easier to intonate- just easier to hide bad intonation

Alec W. Conway · #6 12-05-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

Epoxy has no affect on intonation. As you learn to play fretless you will learn that as you move higher up the neck, your finger progressively migrates towards the nut with each note. What I mean is, at the 5th fret you will be in tune when the line is cutting your finger tip in half, on the 15th fret you will only have a smidge of finger near the line to be in tune. Best advice is practice with a tuner always, keep checking yourself, it takes years!

Hum, that felt like the natural way to go for me when I started playing fretless after 3 years and a half of playing. Been playin exclusively fretless for about a year and a half now.

I never got any comment about me being off-tune, except when I definitely was offtune by a mistake of my own (y'know, **** happens...)

Does that make me a new breed of super-fretless-bassist?

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #7 12-05-2006, 10:33 PM

Nah- you just play with folks nice enough to save their complaints for when you're not around

Otso · #8 12-06-2006, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

Best advice is practice with a tuner always, keep checking yourself, it takes years!

It's a better idea to be able to hear whether you're in tune or not. I haven't played fretless bass, but when it comes to violin, and especially shifting your hand, it's important to hear the note you're about to play in your head. Being able to "sing" what you're playing in your head helps you with noticing your mistakes.

jvbjr · #9 12-06-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otso

It's a better idea to be able to hear whether you're in tune or not. I haven't played fretless bass, but when it comes to violin, and especially shifting your hand, it's important to hear the note you're about to play in your head. Being able to "sing" what you're playing in your head helps you with noticing your mistakes.

Unfortunately most people do not know whether they are in tune or not, they practice out of tune and never learn what in tune sounds like. Everyone over estimates their ability, including their ability to hear pitch. An electronic tuner does not lie, if the dot is red you are off, it does not matter if you are off by 1 cent or 30 cents. After you have used an electronic tuner for a while, you will begin to hear what in tune is. While it is not practical to watch every note on the tuner during a gig, the use of a tuner when you are practicing is as essential as the use of a metronome IMO. Good intonation is a learned craft, an electronic tuner is a wonderful aid in learning the craft of intonation. Why anyone would not use a tuner to improve their sense of pitch is beyond me.

Otso · #10 12-06-2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

Unfortunately most people do not know whether they are in tune or not, they practice out of tune and never learn what in tune sounds like.

That's why you have to learn to listen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

Good intonation is a learned craft, an electronic tuner is a wonderful aid in learning the craft of intonation. Why anyone would not use a tuner to improve their sense of pitch is beyond me.

A recording of what you're learning to play or a keyboard/fretted bass can be used for reference. Of course if you have no idea of how out of tune you are, a tuner might be useful, but my point was that you shouldn't become dependent on the tuner. Just like with a metronome, you should also be able to play properly without it.

jvbjr · #11 12-06-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otso

That's why you have to learn to listen.

A recording of what you're learning to play or a keyboard/fretted bass can be used for reference. Of course if you have no idea of how out of tune you are, a tuner might be useful, but my point was that you shouldn't become dependent on the tuner. Just like with a metronome, you should also be able to play properly without it.

A tuner or a metronome provide a guarantee of accuracy. After many years of using each I believe that you can then play without these items and be in tune, on time. However, to suggest "just learn to listen" to a person who has never played fretless as evidenced in this thread is irresponsible IMO. Many, if not most, college music professors practice with a metronome. If the head of the department at music school feels it is still necessary to use a metronome for their play, I find it ironic that you find yourself above it, but whatever.

Scottgun · #12 12-06-2006, 09:06 AM

People who learn classical string instruments violin, cello etc. are rarely ever taught using a tuner (beyond intial open string tuning, and even then it is usually done using a piano). A metronome yes, a tuner no.

BassChuck · #13 12-06-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

A tuner or a metronome provide a guarantee of accuracy. After many years of using each I believe that you can then play without these items and be in tune, on time. However, to suggest "just learn to listen" to a person who has never played fretless as evidenced in this thread is irresponsible IMO.

I agree. You have to have some point of reference. I'm switching to fretless and I have 2 degrees in music, have taught and played for 35 years. But I'm using a tuner cause sometimes my attention is drawn to other aspects of playing (rhythm, fingering, tempo etc etc) and the intonation just slips. So, the tuner is a good checkpoint.

That said, as soon as possible you should get away from the tuner and start using your ears. Some scales work great because you can use the open strings as a checkpoint. So, for instance, starting on the A string... C.. D (check against open D)... E (check against open E) ...F....G.. you get the picture.

What I find too is that the most useful things to exercise are the ones that are somewhat boring... like matching pitches and playing slowly and listening carefully. I find I have to force myself to do these things.

Playing melodies of songs you know is a great way to practice intervals. Somehow (to my ear) if I play a note out of tune in a melody it stands out more than if I miss a note in a scale. So just get your songbooks out, open to the table of contents (don't turn to the page to read the notes) and jam the melodies by ear. This is fun and really helpful ear training.

jvbjr · #14 12-06-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottgun

People who learn classical string instruments violin, cello etc. are rarely ever taught using a tuner. A metronome yes, a tuner no.

In a disciplined environment, like the school band or constant formal lessons, where there is a teacher to play the role of the tuner. Where I attend school if you took a music elective it was for 45 minutes a day, so you had 3.75 hours of supervised practice a week.

Scottgun · #15 12-06-2006, 09:28 AM

Well I taught myself fretless and only used the tuner to tune the bass and set intonation and play perfectly in tune.

Anyway, back to the original subject. No, I see no reason why it would be harder to play in tune on a coated neck versus a wood neck.

jvbjr · #16 12-06-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottgun

Well I taught myself fretless and only used the tuner to tune the bass and set intonation and play perfectly in tune.

I'll believe it when I see/hear it.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #17 12-06-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

I'll believe it when I see/hear it.

You can ask Steve Lawson or Michael Manring the same question and even they wouldn't make that claim, so I'm erring on the not believing it side

Scottgun · #18 12-06-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvbjr

I'll believe it when I see/hear it.

Hmmm...being implied as a liar. tsk. tsk.

I didn't say I play perfectly all the time. But when I don't play in tune, I know it. Steve Lawson and Michael Manring would say they know the difference between in tune and out of tune.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #19 12-06-2006, 10:06 AM

No one said they wouldn't. There's a big difference between knowing when you're out of tuning and "playing perfectly in tune."

jvbjr · #20 12-06-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottgun

Hmmm...being implied as a liar. tsk. tsk.

I didn't say I play perfectly all the time. But when I don't play in tune, I know it. Steve Lawson and Michael Manring would say they know the difference between in tune and out of tune.

The inclusion of the word "perfect" means always IMO. When you lay claim to playing "perfectly in tune" you either have to back it up or expect to be called out on it. So from your latest quote we can clearly see when you say you play "perfectly in tune", it means you play in tune most of the time, that sounds average and far from perfect to me. Perfect by definition means no errors, flawless.