Intonation on a fretless

[Erick Lam]

You can only use a tuner for long notes. Even if you play a song normally on fretted, the tuner goes all over. It doesn't have time to "catch" the note properly. Playing along a tempered instrument and checking often with open string is better practice IMO. Unless you're a bass newbie, you should recognize wether you're off or not.

[Scottgun]

Originally Posted by jvbjr

The inclusion of the word "perfect" means always IMO. When you lay claim to playing "perfectly in tune" you either have to back it up or expect to be called out on it. So from your latest quote we can clearly see when you say you play "perfectly in tune", it means you play in tune most of the time, that sounds average and far from perfect to me. Perfect by definition means no errors, flawless.

Ok, rather than get into a whole thing, let me try something by way of reconcilliation and finding things we agree on:

1. I make mistakes when playing and think we agree that even the greatest players do from time to time. I think my comment makes sense in context and using simple apprehension, but since it has generated controversy, I'll retract my claim of playing perfectly in tune.

2. I can tell the difference between in-tune and out-of-tune and I think we can agree that most musicians with good amount of experience do as well either getting it from private instruction, sitting with a tuner, or by some other means. Personally I got it from alot of choral accompanied and a capella singing.

3. A Metronome is an essential tool. No argument between us there.

The contentious issue is whether it is necessary to use a tuner to learn to play a fretless in tune. I'll grant that it is one way to learn to train the ear for intonation.



Fair enough? In the words of Jack Sparrow, do we have an accord?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

You can only use a tuner for long notes. Even if you play a song normally on fretted, the tuner goes all over. It doesn't have time to "catch" the note properly.

That all depends on your tuner. I've had a Boss tuner that wouldn't catch quickly, a Strobostomp that was too accurate to use quickly, and my current Planet Waves tuner that catches pretty much immediately. It's great for practicing fretless.

[Otso]

Originally Posted by jvbjr

If the head of the department at music school feels it is still necessary to use a metronome for their play, I find it ironic that you find yourself above it, but whatever.

maybe you should re-read my post.

A metronome helps you check whether you're keeping the tempo constant and it's a good reference for making sure you're playing the rhythms correctly. A keyboard instrument, a fretted bass or a recording can be used for checking when you're practicing intonation. This way you will develop your sense of pitch much better than with a tuner, IMO.

[bass349]

What an extremely strange idea, practicing intonation with a tuner! I would liken it to practicing with a metronome - not by hearing the click, but by watching the swing of the arm.

An interesting concept, and seemingly rather tender topic!

I will throw my 2c in and echoe some of the others opinions in this thread that it is not such a great idea to practice your intonation with your eyes on a tuner. If anything, close your eyes! You should be playing with your ears, not your eyes.. can you sing a major scale in tune? can you sing any interval in tune? if not, then get away from the tuner and sit down at a piano and practice your pitch away from your instrument! IMO, you can't play in tune until you actual know what the pitch is supposed to sound like..

Obviously technique is a huge factor in fretless playing... getting your hands and technique to the point where they can play in tune by "muscle-memory" will definately help a lot.. and i guess using a tuner to check your intonation agains your hand position is one way to achieve this muscle memory. However, if you spend the time improving your own pitch (internal pitch i mean), then i will dare to say that using a tuner to check your pitch on a fretless instrument will seem like a rather absurd notion.



andy.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Otso

A metronome helps you check whether you're keeping the tempo constant and it's a good reference for making sure you're playing the rhythms correctly. A keyboard instrument, a fretted bass or a recording can be used for checking when you're practicing intonation. This way you will develop your sense of pitch much better than with a tuner, IMO.

That's actually not the case quite often. Recordings have no guarantee of being in tune, and many of them have their pitch a little off as a result of the tune being sped or slowed Some bands simply aren't in tune either. Cassette tapes will alter pitch on their own even. And practicing with keyboard instruments will keep you in tune with those keyboard instruments, but not with everyone else, as they are tuned differently. A tuner in A440 that hasn't been dropped off of a house will give you a far better reference point every time.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by bass349

What an extremely strange idea, practicing intonation with a tuner! I would liken it to practicing with a metronome - not by hearing the click, but by watching the swing of the arm.

An interesting concept, and seemingly rather tender topic!

I will throw my 2c in and echoe some of the others opinions in this thread that it is not such a great idea to practice your intonation with your eyes on a tuner. If anything, close your eyes! You should be playing with your ears, not your eyes.. can you sing a major scale in tune? can you sing any interval in tune? if not, then get away from the tuner and sit down at a piano and practice your pitch away from your instrument! IMO, you can't play in tune until you actual know what the pitch is supposed to sound like..

Obviously technique is a huge factor in fretless playing... getting your hands and technique to the point where they can play in tune by "muscle-memory" will definately help a lot.. and i guess using a tuner to check your intonation agains your hand position is one way to achieve this muscle memory. However, if you spend the time improving your own pitch (internal pitch i mean), then i will dare to say that using a tuner to check your pitch on a fretless instrument will seem like a rather absurd notion.



andy.

You used a very over-used and untrue statement in there- "you should be playing with your ears." You don't play with your ears. Your ears only function as pitch recognition- they'll only tell you if you're in tune or out of tune AFTER you play the note. Using just your ears will get your pitch recognition better, but more slowly than if you use multiple senses. This involves not looking at the tuner so much as looking at the fingerboard to see where your hands are- your hand/eye coordination is a strong bond, and can increase your "muscle memory" more quickly. You play with your hands, not your ears, and there's nothing inherently detrimental in looking at your hands at all.

It's quite important to be able to recognize if you are in or out of tune, but it's more important to be able to recognize where your hands should go. If you took a person with absolute perfect pitch and gave them a bass, then popped ear plugs into Gary Willis so he couldn't hear a thing, he'd still play far better than the person who could hear perfectly because he would know where to put his hands.

Closing your eyes will only help if you have a real problem concentrating and can't use multiple senses at the same time. Otherwise it will only harm you, particularly when the time comes where you can't hear yourself in the mix and are still expected to play in tune- something I found painfully true the first time I tried recording with a band back when I had an unlined fretless

[Jazz Ad]

Mwah is way overrated and overused on fretless.
If you want tons of it, you'd better not coat the wood.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Mwah is way overrated and overused on fretless.
If you want tons of it, you'd better not coat the wood.

Really? Fortunately nobody told this bass...

[MichaelVee]

I don't thinking the point of playing fretless is trying to play every note in perfect tune, anyway, even if it was possible. The slightly out-of-tune notes give the fretless its charm, within reason, in the hands of a competent player.

Having said that, I have another kind of intonation question. There has to be some way to set the string length on an unlined fretless. I can set the intonation up on my fretless basses until the bovines come home, but have yet to figure out the exact place on the fingerboard to finger the octaves - where the 12th fret would be on a fretted.

So, I've settled for playing the 12th fret (octave) harmonic, and getting it in tune with the bridge strength length screws. Is that the generally accepted method?

I figure if the bridge is set for correct intonation, that should make the bass sound more in tune and make the fingering more consistent.