Jamming with terrible drummers...

Lichtaffen · #1 09-07-2009, 06:55 AM

Here's a totally off the wall question, but to preface:

I reconnected with a good friend the other day who happens to consider himself a drummer. We got together and jammed recently and I found that he plays too busy, tries too hard, keeps his eyes closed, can't keep time and worse, plays a Roland electronic kit which he can't turn up because of his neighbors. I basically just played steady rhythms and tried to make the best of it by holding it down. The only plus was that his two kids (4 and 2) loved it and were dancing to what we were playing.

My bass teacher told me that the bass player is responsible for keeping time and should never ever let the drummer keep time. I don't disagree with him, I just never really thought of it that way.

Here's my question: would it benefit me to keep playing with this drummer with the goal of trying to keep the time myself and not let his poor timing and bad fills affect my timekeeping? I'd never start a band with him, but I feel like this exercise would be akin to a bicyclist biking uphill in order to strengthen his legs. The last drummer I seriously played with was a human metronome and even when he made a mistake (rarely), he'd come back like nothing happened and keep playing steady. I think he spoiled me a little. What do you all think?

basslinejam · #2 09-07-2009, 07:04 AM

I don't know...

I've never gotten better playing with other musicians who weren't as good as me. Always seek out players that are better than you. The biking analogy that playing with your friend is like a hill climb that will make you stronger is all backwards; it is you who is the hill and he is getting stronger by playing with you.

That said, not every musical situation has to be a mind blowing epiphany. If it were me I would learn some children's song melodies on my bass for next time

Lichtaffen · #3 09-07-2009, 07:31 AM

That is such great advice. Damn! I'm the hill. That totally makes sense.

Swipter · #4 09-07-2009, 07:43 AM

Teach him...that's what I am doing with a current country/western drummer I am with right now. We don't play that style of music. Hopefully he's open to it.

snappytom · #5 09-07-2009, 07:46 AM

Move on, life is too short to put up with crappy drummers.

Played for years with a drummer I learned to ignore. Once I started playing with solid drummers again I had to completely adjust (in a good way) the way I interacted with them. Not being able to trust your drummer stinks.

Billnc · #6 09-07-2009, 08:02 AM

The players should agree on the time. If anyone actually has to 'keep' time the other guy is not a good player. A good drummer isn't spoiling you, it's the way it should be.

dDaddybass · #7 09-07-2009, 08:08 AM

it's everybodys responsibilty to keep time, perhaps a click track would benefit him.

rythman6969 · #8 09-07-2009, 08:14 AM

as a drummer and bass player I agree that it's everyone's job to keep time. drum teachers like to say it's the drummers job and bass teachers like to say it's the bassist's job but it's no fun for anyone who has to be THE guy who keeps time. You have to be a machine and you don't get the freedom the other players get. you should be able to play around the beat alittle and not have to worry about your band losing it.

that being said, if your drummer can't keep the beat you're probably doing more harm than good by playing with him.

imo

Kenny Allyn · #9 09-07-2009, 08:24 AM

I'm blessed to work with a drummer who is something of a legend around here, he has been doing it as a pro since 1965! We have been at it together for about three years now and yeah it's "tight as a tick" as we say in the South.

That said every other week or so I play an open blues jam where players of all levels get up and show what they got. Let me tell ya it can make you work, but it is also a valuable tool to keep you flexible and on your game. It's a live on stage learning/teaching process and and in the end I think it helps bring everyones level UP.

... Jamming with your old friend will most likely benefit you both in the long run ... if it's fun

MalcolmAmos · #10 09-07-2009, 09:12 AM

Have a similar situation. In the band I play bass in it's just me on bass and the vocalist on acoustic guitar.

His timing is what ever he thinks is approporate - and I'm being kind - will take off on a flourish anytime he feels like it. Needless to say it's a chore keeping an approporate beat. Thought about just sticking to my steady beat, that does not work, and now I'm adjusting and getting a feel for how to handle the flourish. We are friends of long standing, flowing is the better option.

Ditto the post about it keeping you flexible.

As to who sets the beat, our drummer - in our other band - follows the bass. Our Son-in-law is a drummer and he also follows the bass. Each rhythm section just has to work that out, it depends on the specific band as to who does what. I think it's been established for this two piece band I spoke of who sets the beat in that band.

Big John66 · #11 09-07-2009, 09:40 AM

If he is a good friend, see if you can point out areas where he can improve, ie. overplaying, rushing and the like. If he gets pissed, don't waste you time. If he responds positively, work with him.
I was on the other side of the situation many years ago. A drummer I played with took the time to teach me. It altered my playing forever for the better. Hope it works out.

Lichtaffen · #12 09-08-2009, 06:00 AM

All replies have been very helpful, thanks. I have a very good feeling that it's not that he won't take suggestions, but I don't think he has the time to dedicate to practicing. I practice almost every night. I sit there and meticulously work with a metronome. We're in different leagues. I'm just going to keep it as a fun diversion. He's a good guy and I enjoy hanging out with him and his family, music can be secondary (did I just say that?!). I see music as a form of communication, plain and simple. Some conversations are deep and complex, others can be just pleasant and enjoyable.

I do really like the suggestion to learn kids songs, can you suggest any good ones? I don't have kids and I don't know what they listen to these days.

basslinejam · #13 09-08-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

I do really like the suggestion to learn kids songs, can you suggest any good ones? I don't have kids and I don't know what they listen to these days.

If they're two and four, old saws like Itsy Bitsy Spider, Wheels on the Bus, Teddybear Teddybear and the ABC song..... might be good because the kids can help sing along. Or maybe they're dad has a CD of stuff they like and you all can play along - get a little ear training workout in

I also like Abbey Road as a kids' record

KPAX · #14 09-08-2009, 05:20 PM

Your bass teacher is wrong. Like it or not, the drummer will always be the time center of a rock band. If the drummer has bad time, the band will suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lichtaffen

Here's a totally off the wall question, but to preface:

I reconnected with a good friend the other day who happens to consider himself a drummer. We got together and jammed recently and I found that he plays too busy, tries too hard, keeps his eyes closed, can't keep time and worse, plays a Roland electronic kit which he can't turn up because of his neighbors. I basically just played steady rhythms and tried to make the best of it by holding it down. The only plus was that his two kids (4 and 2) loved it and were dancing to what we were playing.

My bass teacher told me that the bass player is responsible for keeping time and should never ever let the drummer keep time. I don't disagree with him, I just never really thought of it that way.

Here's my question: would it benefit me to keep playing with this drummer with the goal of trying to keep the time myself and not let his poor timing and bad fills affect my timekeeping? I'd never start a band with him, but I feel like this exercise would be akin to a bicyclist biking uphill in order to strengthen his legs. The last drummer I seriously played with was a human metronome and even when he made a mistake (rarely), he'd come back like nothing happened and keep playing steady. I think he spoiled me a little. What do you all think?

basslinejam · #15 09-08-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KPAX

Your bass teacher is wrong. Like it or not, the drummer will always be the time center of a rock band. If the drummer has bad time, the band will suck.

That there is true true and true.

Arpeggiator · #16 09-08-2009, 06:36 PM

i have played with both drummers who are as good/better than me and incredibly bad drummers. being on both sides helps, with good drummer you can keep the groove tight, and expand as a section where appropriate ofcourse.

With bad drummers it is a pain but i feel it really helps with your stage communication, since i would have to take the reigns so to speak, you have to watch the drummer constently mainly to keep them in time.

i will tell you what i hate most is a great drummer who plays to much, that can be more annoy/disruptive than a starter - drummer who may stop/ or hit a wrong beat. since you know they have the ability to control themselves they just choose to p*ss all over everyone else.

PBassTX · #17 09-08-2009, 07:04 PM

Vic Wooten says you should never depend on the drummer to keep time. I agree that you should never "depend" on the drummer to keep time, but I also know that even if the rest of the band has good time and the drummer doesn't... it's a real problem.

Go to the web site below. On the left side of the screen there is a menu of "Channels" select Artist Features, then Vic Wooten and watch Exercise 2. Pretty interesting exercise on keeping time.

http://www.bassplayer.tv/

standupright · #18 09-08-2009, 07:13 PM

you could always consider it a two way street. you're teaching him meter and rhythm, and you're learning patience and listening.

rarisgod · #19 09-08-2009, 08:15 PM

Yeah I'd think playing with someone with poor timing could affect your timekeeping skills in a way, depending on how used to it you became...but you could also help him if you chose to teach him.

smithal3 · #20 09-08-2009, 08:17 PM

Keep jamming with him, after a little while, your rhythm/tempo will be solid and eventually he will get better too. Win/win!