Jazz Tunes and Soloing Techniques

[Pilbromatic]

Hi guys, pretty broad topic, I know...

Namely what I'm working on at the moment is Giant Steps. Does anyone have some great bass-specific techniques when it comes to soloing over this tune? I know the ins-and-outs of the tune and how to solo over it, I was just thinking it'd be cool to discuss this tune from a bassist's point of view - And other tunes of course!

[251]

Originally Posted by Pilbromatic

Hi guys, pretty broad topic, I know...

Namely what I'm working on at the moment is Giant Steps. Does anyone have some great bass-specific techniques when it comes to soloing over this tune? I know the ins-and-outs of the tune and how to solo over it, I was just thinking it'd be cool to discuss this tune from a bassist's point of view - And other tunes of course!

I don't often play this tune. Like the others I jam with, this tune takes too much prep to call it up 'for fun'.

Let's start with playing a bass line behind a solo. I am usually most concerned with;
How to balance rhythm, interest & simplicity to avoid making things more difficult for the soloist? I tend toward simplicity, doubling notes & using arpeggios, often.
How to segue through the key changes happening in intervals of |6|6|6|4|6|8|8|8|8|4| measures? Sometimes my head just hurts. Sometimes I have the focus to keep counting. That, of course means I am thinking, eyes glued to a chart. Not a good thing to do while playing & listening to the players around me. I usually play a lot of "lead tones" (aka, I missed the key change)

I revert to Mark Levine's advise to soloists (The Jazz Theory Book) & use V Pentatonic scale tones as much as I can. Hence the question about maintaining interest.

What do you like to do? How do you stay focused?

[MalcolmAmos]

251

I revert to Mark Levine's advise to soloists (The Jazz Theory Book) & use V Pentatonic scale tones as much as I can. Hence the question about maintaining interest.

Never thought of that, I would have just relied on chord tones or the Tonic C major pentatonic. Maybe getting around to G pentatonic if I was following the C F G chord changes.

V's pentatonic does not contain the tonic note - in this case it would be G, A, B, D, E or the 5-6-7-2-3 degrees of the C scale. I see you get the 5-7-3 this way. Ten or fifteen words on why use the V's pentatonic would be appreciated.

Is it a matter of leaving the tonic to others, staying out of the way - less is more???

[groooooove]

are we talking about pentatonic scales over..giant steps?

transcribe coltranes solo on the recording and dig into what hes seeing/thinking, see the thought process. then you'll start really making music over a tune as difficult as that one.

and pre-written 2-5-1 lines are highly reccomended, always.

[narud]

bass specific techniques? im trying to not sound like a bass player when i solo

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by groooooove

are we talking about pentatonic scales over..giant steps?

The way I understand 251's post he was talking about us starting a discussion of playing the bass line under a soloist efforts and how this can be done. We are not taking the lead...

[bassandbeyond]

I try to simplify it a little bit. For example, you can ignore the ii chords in the second half of the tune. Instead of thinking |ii V|I |, you can think |V |I |.

There are only three keys in that tune: B, G, and Eb, and every key change is up or down a Major 3rd, so the progression is fairly easy to memorize, if not easy to play!

[Kevin.Kevin]

The best part about knowing that tune, is dropping those chord changes over a blues or something. Like implying those chord changes in another song. Of course in the same key relative and such. That's what Trane used to do. Sounds pretty 'hip'

[bassbrad]

Originally Posted by Pilbromatic

I was just thinking it'd be cool to discuss this tune from a bassist's point of view - And other tunes of course!

For Giant Steps and other tunes with a lot of changes i have a tendency to work up a bass line or 2 and pretty much stay there thru the whole tune. I do that to maintain the harmonic flow & support for the tune, a safety net to allow the soloist to explore while I help keep their place in the tune. With that in mind i usually have a cadence that I will play over the last 4 or 8 bars of a tune to really anchor the safety net.
Source recordings are a great study tool, on the original it its Tommy Flanagan the pianist who is laying down the road map allowing Paul Chambers the bassist and 'Trane to explore, when the piano takes his solo the bassist relies on an established line to keep place.
While there seems to be some resistance for bassists to study and develop soloing techniques, I personally find that the more skilled and knowledgeable i get as a soloist I also develop my skills as a bassist to follow other soloists and to instinctively know what they want or need.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Agree with BassBrad here...usually it's good to start very simple when a soloist begins..giving them the floor..if he starts to get 'Bird' and 'Trane' on you then you start working that thing..Love use of octaves also.Many people forget the rythm when walking...let the ride cymbal do it's job, when can 'imply' the beat sometimes...drummer has to be really good to NOT listen to you


My 0.01

[251]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

251

Never thought of that, I would have just relied on chord tones or the Tonic C major pentatonic. Maybe getting around to G pentatonic if I was following the C F G chord changes.

V's pentatonic does not contain the tonic note - in this case it would be G, A, B, D, E or the 5-6-7-2-3 degrees of the C scale. I see you get the 5-7-3 this way. Ten or fifteen words on why use the V's pentatonic would be appreciated.

Is it a matter of leaving the tonic to others, staying out of the way - less is more???

It's more complex than that Malcolm. The key changes are;

|B|Eb|G|Eb|B|Eb|G|B|Eb|B|
|6| 6| 6| 4 |6| 8 |8|8| 8 |4|

The Vs are
|E|Bb|D|Bb|E|Bb|D|E|Bb|E|

The chord changes exist over that harmonic structure of shifting 3rds. Soloing within the V Pentatonics as the Keys change is a 'safe way' to solo this tune. Playing something melodic & interesting while keeping track of the passing measures is really difficult. Laying down a bass line that clearly defines the form without making the tune harder is just as difficult.

[Phil Smith]

Um, they poster is referring to soloing over the tune not supporting soloist soloing over the tune...big difference.

[251]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

The way I understand 251's post he was talking about us starting a discussion of playing the bass line under a soloist efforts and how this can be done. We are not taking the lead...

I am not the OP. Just the 1st to reply. Please read the 1st post.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by 251

It's more complex than that Malcolm. The key changes are;

|B|Eb|G|Eb|B|Eb|G|B|Eb|B|
|6| 6| 6| 4 |6| 8 |8|8| 8 |4|

The Vs are
|E|Bb|D|Bb|E|Bb|D|E|Bb|E|

The chord changes exist over that harmonic structure of shifting 3rds. Soloing within the V Pentatonics as the Keys change is a 'safe way' to solo this tune. Playing something melodic & interesting while keeping track of the passing measures is really difficult. Laying down a bass line that clearly defines the form without making the tune harder is just as difficult.

It's less difficult when you "know" the tune and have the sound internalized of the tune internalized at that point you don't think so much in chords but in melodic ideas. You could use the melody as a basis for playing something meaningful over the changes.

[251]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

Um, they poster is referring to soloing over the tune not supporting soloist soloing over the tune...big difference.

The OP does say let's discuss soloing this tune from a Bass Player's perspective. I have played Giant Steps with friends & will be the first to tell you, I have no advice to give about soloing the tune. Sorry it wasn't clear, the reference to V Pentatonics is from Mark Levine - The Jazz Theory Book, pp202-205. I use V Pentatonic tones for the bass line too, hoping they fit right in with the solo. Most of the time I play a walking solo for Giant Steps. At tempo, this tune pushes me up against the edge of the my envelope.8-)

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Pilbromatic

Hi guys, pretty broad topic, I know...

Namely what I'm working on at the moment is Giant Steps. Does anyone have some great bass-specific techniques when it comes to soloing over this tune? I know the ins-and-outs of the tune and how to solo over it, I was just thinking it'd be cool to discuss this tune from a bassist's point of view - And other tunes of course!

Here's what he wrote...what part about soloing didn't you get?

[251]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

It's less difficult when you "know" the tune and have the sound internalized of the tune internalized at that point you don't think so much in chords but in melodic ideas. You could use the melody as a basis for playing something meaningful over the changes.

We can agree about that, Phil. It is a sound approach to most tunes, too. Knowing the tune is an investment of many, many hours. Still more hours keeping it fresh in a repertoire. I am an amateur player with a living room big enough for a jam session. If we play a tune 'half-fast' we play it again for good measure & move on. 8-)