Learning Complicated Songs – The correct approach

[stoob]

I’ve been playing the bass now at a proficient level now for around 15 years, but I’ve only just started to really learn my instrument, such as memorising all the notes on the fretboard and learning my scales, modes etc.

As is a natural want of bass players in these forums, I wanted to up my game and learn some Jaco stuff, so I had a go at Teen Town, thinking it’s complicated, but it didn’t take me long to learn it and now I can play it reasonably well.

Now I was thinking about upping my game even more and learning Havona, an example of this behemoth is shown here with a young dude demonstrating the complexity of the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI2fRC3tZTU

But I am thinking: how would people approach learning such pieces in developing your musical skills, not just being able to play a complicated song because you have memorised where the notes are, but have actually delved into the song structure and really understood how all the notes and patterns fit together? Of course, all practice is good but not necessarily beneficial in actually learning the instrument, as there is a tendency sometimes just to ‘play by ear’ or be lazy like I am and remember where the notes are , just memorising where the notes are in the song instead of working out the key the song is in, the scales, or how the notes fit together technically in the piece.

With Teen Town, there is a tendency to impress people once you’ve learned the basic patterns, but say if you had to work out another song on the fly whilst playing in a band situation, you can get stuck in not knowing what to play but just hoping that the guys will play Teen Town in a minute and really show what a fantastic musician you are!

Am I making sense? Of course you shouldn’t run before you can walk and have to learn the basics at first, but what I am saying is, at a more intermediate stage, what’s the correct approach to becoming a more skilled musician when learning new and complicated songs?

Cheers

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by stoob

I’ve been playing the bass now at a proficient level now for around 15 years, but I’ve only just started to really learn my instrument, such as memorising all the notes on the fretboard and learning my scales, modes etc.

As is a natural want of bass players in these forums, I wanted to up my game and learn some Jaco stuff, so I had a go at Teen Town, thinking it’s complicated, but it didn’t take me long to learn it and now I can play it reasonably well.

Now I was thinking about upping my game even more and learning Havona, an example of this behemoth is shown here with a young dude demonstrating the complexity of the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI2fRC3tZTU

But I am thinking: how would people approach learning such pieces in developing your musical skills, not just being able to play a complicated song because you have memorised where the notes are, but have actually delved into the song structure and really understood how all the notes and patterns fit together? Of course, all practice is good but not necessarily beneficial in actually learning the instrument, as there is a tendency sometimes just to ‘play by ear’ or be lazy like I am and remember where the notes are , just memorising where the notes are in the song instead of working out the key the song is in, the scales, or how the notes fit together technically in the piece.

With Teen Town, there is a tendency to impress people once you’ve learned the basic patterns, but say if you had to work out another song on the fly whilst playing in a band situation, you can get stuck in not knowing what to play but just hoping that the guys will play Teen Town in a minute and really show what a fantastic musician you are!

Am I making sense? Of course you shouldn’t run before you can walk and have to learn the basics at first, but what I am saying is, at a more intermediate stage, what’s the correct approach to becoming a more skilled musician when learning new and complicated songs?

Cheers

one thing my bass teacher pointed out is that in teen town there is a section that is almost a classic root, 3, 5,.... I am still learning but basically know that in most settings, root, 5 and octave can work,... thats always a good starting point,...

I asked my teacher on how to make up a bassline for my band cos I couldn't work out what the guitars were doing,... we started just doing different rhythms with the root note for starters and then adding in different notes from the scale and a few passing notes to make it sound more interesting,... I need to invest more time in learning my scales as opposed to just the 'pattern' but thats always a start, hope that helped in some way? I'm learning anesthesia by cliff burton and the best way to learn that song is to break it down very slowly,... helps that way because you get the background behind the structure as well as remembering the parts to the song,...

[stoob]

Yes that's a help, to work out what is going on in the piece is so much more important than just learning note for note. I was playing a minor piece only to realise that on some frets you can play a major scale and it fits perfectly, it's trial and error I guess but it's working out why the notes work that is important. Thanks for getting this topic rolling

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by stoob

Yes that's a help, to work out what is going on in the piece is so much more important than just learning note for note. I was playing a minor piece only to realise that on some frets you can play a major scale and it fits perfectly, it's trial and error I guess but it's working out why the notes work that is important. Thanks for getting this topic rolling

no worries, I'm not much of a help cos I'm still learning alot myself, spent years just playing things 'trial and error',... now im taking the effort to actually find out what I'm doing! good luck

[stoob]

It does take time, but I have found that when you hit a wall in your playing, it's usually because you need to learn more scales/modes etc and look at how notes work together, I would like to know how to approach something like Jaco's Havona and actually learn my instrument through rather than simply learning what note follows note

[mambo4]

probably the most value I get when learning someone else's bass lines is in examining how the bass line relates to the chords of the song.

This means breaking down the song in terms of functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) and seeing how each chord is supported by the note choices. As you do this you'll see that there are common chord movements that crop up again and again.

A quick way to check your understanding is to transpose the song up a fourth or a fifth (so you have to 'start' on a different string, not just a few frets away) and see if you can play it ina new key.

When you examine the songs you learn that way, each one adds to your vocabulary of what you can play over those chords progressions next time they pop up.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by mambo4

probably the most value I get when learning someone else's bass lines is in examining how the bass line relates to the chords of the song.

This means breaking down the song in terms of functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) and seeing how each chord is supported by the note choices. As you do this you'll see that there are common chord movements that crop up again and again.

A quick way to check your understanding is to transpose the song up a fourth or a fifth (so you have to 'start' on a different string, not just a few frets away) and see if you can play it ina new key.

When you examine the songs you learn that way, each one adds to your vocabulary of what you can play over those chords progressions next time they pop up.

This is such a good answer I wish I had said it. Mambo is exactly right. Learn everything else that's going on around the bassline. I don't just learn basslines for any song. I learn everything, from the drums to the horns (if there are horns, that is). It all interconnects.

[bigblondeafro87]

Last week I had to write a Bass solo intro to Joe Henderson's Recordame (wrecker dame as we call it ) and I was clueless where to start at first. Remembering something that I read on these forums, I decided to go through and learn the melody and some chords inversions off the chords in the tune to give me some ideas to play off of.

In the end I wrote a ~3 minutes piece that had a theme that I came up with and hinted at the melody here and there. Learning the melody really helps put the 'mood' of the song in your head.

[Oratorio]

Originally Posted by bigblondeafro87

Last week I had to write a Bass solo intro to Joe Henderson's Recordame (wrecker dame as we call it ) and I was clueless where to start at first. Remembering something that I read on these forums, I decided to go through and learn the melody and some chords inversions off the chords in the tune to give me some ideas to play off of.

In the end I wrote a ~3 minutes piece that had a theme that I came up with and hinted at the melody here and there. Learning the melody really helps put the 'mood' of the song in your head.

This is the sort of thing I would really love to do. But I am really clueless as to start. When you talk about chord inversions, how did you apply those to creating your "solo"? Did you just arpeggiate the chords, and put variations of the melody in there?

[bigblondeafro87]

I think what's happening with you is that you're thinking too technically about creating music. What I was doing with inversions is really just messing around seeing which different combinations of notes still outline the chord, but give the music a different 'flavor' or 'color'.

When you start messing with the inversions for a chord sequence, you can begin to see relationships between them and how to chromatically shift a chord by half-steps to another inversion of the same or different chord.

Using chromatic approaches can produce results that challenge the ear and have a lot of tension and release (usually).

Soloing is supposed to sound somewhat melodic (IMO), just look at sax players for example. Take a look at melodic exercises for other instruments, I've been using a David Hite book written for sax and it's really helped my playing become more melodic sounding.

Try to tell a story with your music, each phrase being a sentence. Using phrases or pieces of phrases of the song's melody in your solo can be used in as many ways as you can think of. You can play part of the melody, say its based around a minor chord, and play it around a major chord so you get the same contour, but different feel. You can echo it in a different key, use different rythyms, play it in octaves, etc.

Play whatever pleases your ear, there are no rules. Experiment a lot and when you play something you really like, play it again and refine it, combine it with other things, and play it in different places on the neck to memorize it.

[stoob]

Originally Posted by mambo4

probably the most value I get when learning someone else's bass lines is in examining how the bass line relates to the chords of the song.

This means breaking down the song in terms of functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) and seeing how each chord is supported by the note choices. As you do this you'll see that there are common chord movements that crop up again and again.

Some excellent advice here, thanks BigBlonde I'll follow your great examples.


Mambo, can you explain that functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) thing?

Cheers

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by stoob

Some excellent advice here, thanks BigBlonde I'll follow your great examples.

Mambo, can you explain that functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) thing?

Got a few years?

It's all about relating the bassline to the chords of the song and finding notes that function with the chord changes that aren't necessarily the root notes of each chord. It's something you learn as you go, really, and can't really be capsulized in a couple paragraphs. But once you learn it, you'll be able to write your own basslines and improvise different and possibly more creative basslines on the lines you're learning from recordings.

[stoob]

Excellent Jimmy, thanks

[steve66]

Originally Posted by mambo4

probably the most value I get when learning someone else's bass lines is in examining how the bass line relates to the chords of the song.

This means breaking down the song in terms of functional harmony (I-vi-ii-V7 and such) and seeing how each chord is supported by the note choices. As you do this you'll see that there are common chord movements that crop up again and again.

A quick way to check your understanding is to transpose the song up a fourth or a fifth (so you have to 'start' on a different string, not just a few frets away) and see if you can play it ina new key.

When you examine the songs you learn that way, each one adds to your vocabulary of what you can play over those chords progressions next time they pop up.

+1 Good Post. Don't we as bass players all do this?