Left Hand(Thumb) Position

Bassman8416 · #1 08-30-2010, 03:36 PM

Hey there folks,
I have a dilemma... I have been playing electric bass for a number of years...well over 30yrs, the last couple of years I have been studying Jazz, some schooling at City College...i studied with Lincoln Goines, another cat named Kyle Nix(great teacher) and performed a jury piece for John Patitucci(got a quick lesson, as a result, amazing player and human being).
They had helped correct my left by keeping the left thumb around the center of the neck, with the thumb behind the middle finger..etc. It works for me.
I recently had the opportunity to hang and study with a great upright player, older cat, years of playing upright. He wants me to completely change my left hand technique(on electric). To approach it like an upright, bending at the knuckle and spreading the fingers like a 1-2-4 style. Man, he worked on me for a half hour like that and told me to change, hes old school and its his way or the highway...it hurts and I don't like it, he has great knowledge as far as phrasing, soling etc...but won't move ahead until i change. I don't think I can work with him if he insists on this grip deal. he throws the, well I have 25 years on the road experience with the masters vibe on me and you just don't know. Aren't these two completely different animals..upright and electric?
Any advice ?

MrGotBass · #2 08-30-2010, 03:40 PM

Are you playing an upright?

If not, don't hold it like an upright.

Bassman8416 · #3 08-30-2010, 03:49 PM

No...I play electric. I just was looking for his approaches for walking, soloing, phrasing etc.
He immediately said, your left hand is wrong, we have to change that......

HaVIC5 · #4 08-30-2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Aren't these two completely different animals..upright and electric?

Yes. Here's my (extensive) take on the subject.

http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/

Quote:

No...I play electric. I just was looking for his approaches for walking, soloing, phrasing etc.
He immediately said, your left hand is wrong, we have to change that......

This guy apparently has a lot of experience on upright, and on all things upright, you should take his advice. Ask him how much experience he has on electric. Not "taking out the electric once in a while for a funk gig" experience, I mean years of shedding and gigging on the electric for many hours a day. If you get any sense that he thinks of the electric as a "lesser" instrument or thinks that the upright technique should transfer to the electric, take any advice with regards to technique on electric he gives with a large grain of salt.

StyleOverShow · #5 08-30-2010, 07:08 PM

Teachers w/baggage. Some are "Soup Nazis" and if you like the soup, you will suffer any humiliation to get the goods. The whole deal with technique is to make clear, well defined tones from whatever you are banging on at the moment, electric or upright.

The approaches are different for both instrument types as are the sounds that they make.

Respect that and learn what you can from the masters, such as they are, human and filled with their own frailties, expertise and requirements.

Bassman8416 · #6 08-30-2010, 07:26 PM

He has experience on all things upright and is not a good electric player, he sometimes takes his electric to "show" me something and it sounds horrible...I can barely keep a straight face. But, when he has the upright and I have the electric and he shows me a phrase or a certain approach...its beautiful. i would Love to just take what I need and leave the rest, but he specifically wants me to change my left hand position. i guess i can try and tell him, I know I will get the, "did you ever play with Miles thing".

Bassman8416 · #7 08-30-2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Yes. Here's my (extensive) take on the subject.

http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/

This guy apparently has a lot of experience on upright, and on all things upright, you should take his advice. Ask him how much experience he has on electric. Not "taking out the electric once in a while for a funk gig" experience, I mean years of shedding and gigging on the electric for many hours a day. If you get any sense that he thinks of the electric as a "lesser" instrument or thinks that the upright technique should transfer to the electric, take any advice with regards to technique on electric he gives with a large grain of salt.

Great stuff my brother.

Mayers · #8 08-31-2010, 07:28 AM

Play a fretless bass ... you will get the idea behind the position

BassChuck · #9 08-31-2010, 08:54 AM

Just tell him you want to study music, not bass technique. Present him with some questions about walking bass lines and chord progressions, soloing and style considerations. Let the sound and the music dictate what the technique should be.

nobodysfool · #10 08-31-2010, 09:07 AM

Putting your thumb behind the middle finger on the neck will give you a good case of the hand cramps, IMHO. Place the thumb behind the neck, and in it's natural position, with your wrist straight. It will naturally rest "above" your index finger, and there's nothing wrong with that. Keep your wrist straight, and you will have less problems.

Big B. · #11 08-31-2010, 09:25 AM

I play electric and upright and while I use very similar technique on both, I think the highway is better than overhauling your technique. If you got the chance to hone your left hand technique with Lincoln Goines and John Pattituci and you feel good doing what you do, then you would be crazy to let this guy change that. Keep in mind that a lot of older upright players have a very low opinion of the electric bass and consider it an inferior instrument. If you want to study phrasing and soloing maybe you should consider finding a good horn player to study with. I took some improv lessons from the saxophone professor in college and those were amazingly useful lessons. Horn players have a natural feel for lines and phrasing.

Bassman8416 · #12 08-31-2010, 10:42 AM

http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/

This is a VERY good take on the whole thing. I have the best success with this, no pain!!!!

timmus · #13 08-31-2010, 11:01 AM

I play both, electric and URB. On the URB I find I typically play with the thumb firmly planted on the back of the neck and use it as a pivot to reach the notes with my fingers.

On electric, I will usually use the same approach until I start moving up the neck (I wear the bass with the neck at a fairly steep angle)...as I approach the higher frets, say around the 12th fret, I tend to start wrapping my thumb around the neck, no longer on the back of the neck. It's all about geometry and ergonomics.

Fergie Fulton · #14 08-31-2010, 11:31 AM

Let me start by saying that the technique to playing bass guitar and up-right bass has no grounds of similarity in instrument position, so the techniques need to be different.
In an up-right bass the back, hips, knees, shoulder, elbow, wrist, and fingers all contribute to positioning on the instrument, but not to a bass guitar. An up-right bass stand free on the ground separate from any body movement, a bass guitar hangs on the player as will move with the player.

To this end we can as humans hold the palm of our left hand in front of us and lift it high or low still keeping the palm in the same position, because the shoulder, elbow and wrist joints move to support the movement, as in an up-right bass fretting movement. But now try the electric bass movement of moving the palm to the side and far away from the body.....now it is harder if not impossible to achieve any range of movement that keeps the palm square to the neck line.

As the hand moves out the palm must tilt as the elbow moves from the body, so the wrist must turn to hold it "on plane". But the wrist does not support that movement. Alternatively if the elbow stays in to the body the palm starts to cross the line of the neck after a the movement starts because it is working from a fixed axis. This is one of the reasons the classic C position does not work on the bass guitar, because the hand has to turn, therefore the thumb will be put under strain.
The thumb is better in a neutral thumb position in the lower parts of the bass rather than trying to hold a C position. Movement up and down in front of you as in the upright action, the C-position can be held comfortable and keep the fingers in plane and in line with the fretboard, the shoulder can position the arm and therefore the hand to keep such positions in line, even the knees can be used to lower the body, therefore lowering the shoulder, therefore lowering the hand and still keep it in line. Not so on a bass guitar because the bass hangs on the body, only movement of the instrument will help in reaching certain positions, not the body. bend your knees and the bass is still the same height, lower your shoulder and the bass lowers with it.....because it hangs on you.

I have measured players movements on the up vertical plane against a horizontal plane using nothing more than a wooden rod, the difference is by average three times greater in the vertical then the horizontal for ease of holding positions in plane.

So check the link of Adams again and understand why these positions he talks about are better all round for bass guitar.

http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/

Bassman8416 · #15 08-31-2010, 12:41 PM

Amen Fergie!!!!

Big B. · #16 08-31-2010, 11:50 PM

Even though I disagree with everything you just said, you help make the point that I was trying to make. An upright player with no real experience on electric bass has no business telling someone how to play it.

Jim Carr · #17 08-31-2010, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayers

Play a fretless bass ... you will get the idea behind the position

Upright (Simandl-variety) fingering works better on fretless, IMHO, though it has it's reasonable application, with modification on the fretted slab, too.

okcrum · #18 09-01-2010, 12:05 AM

I had to wait till I got home, because I honestly didn't consciously remember what I do.

Anyway, the simple description is that my thumb fans as it goes up the board. At the headstock, it's in adam's open position pointing toward the headstock. About halfway down the neck it's straight up behind my middle finger. And as I get up into the cutouts it turns towards the bridge just a little bit.

Seems comfortable, been doing it for 42 years. Not at all what I do on DB to be sure.

BassInUrFace · #19 09-01-2010, 12:55 AM

Long answer. I play both and have adapted things from upright in to my electric playing (not so much the other way round though). However I still generally use the technique you first mentioned of putting your thumb behind your middle finder and having 4 fingers over 4 frets on electric. But I do use the second technique (1-2-4) you mentioned for Upright. Just because this cat is outstanding at Upright doesn't mean his knowledge passes straight over to electric.

Short answer. Don't listen to the old guy.

Chris K · #20 09-01-2010, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Yes. Here's my (extensive) take on the subject.

http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/

For some months I have been following these insights and results are very satisfactory. Thanks, Adam.

Teachers may show a certain degree of rigidness

when teaching 'proper' technique. But hands and wrist etc. etc. do differ. A player might simply be physically unable to combine all elements of preferred technique, as we often read on TB. Compromise will be needed her and there, and the role of the teacher is to help the student to find his own way to develop a technique both satisfactory and healthy within his or her own limits.

Many teachers, I'm afraid, don't have the haziest idea where to compromise.