Major frustration with offbeat!

[Ste_m3]

firstly, ive done a quick search, and if there are any threads already in use, id appreciate it if you could point me that direction =)

Anyway, my band is playing some real drum and bass orientated stuff at the moment, and theres one song imparticular that requires offbeat bass during the chorus to create a "happy hardcore" effect (im not sure if thats recognised in america, if not just think very fast hip hop)

in this part, the drummer is playing a very basic kick-hihat-kick-hihat but at quite a speed. and i just cannot get myself out of the habbit of locking onto that bass drum when i need to be in time with the hi hat. i can finger roll the octaves just about but it takes away from the overall feel having a roling line instead of jolty offbeat, and even with that i struggle because of the high tempo.

what im asking is do you guys have any advice on learning to keep with an off beat? My drummer is very helpful, we've gone through everything at different paces and the only time i can lock on is when im literally staring at his sticks and making a visual assosiation with when im playing.
It also helps if he swaps the high hat for say a tom, just easier to lock with.

I do apologise if any of the above isnt clear! i realised when i started writing this that trying to describe sounds isnt going to be easy! we've knocked together a scratch track and ill get a link to that asap.

thanks in advance!

Ste

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by Ste_m3

firstly, ive done a quick search, and if there are any threads already in use, id appreciate it if you could point me that direction =)

Anyway, my band is playing some real drum and bass orientated stuff at the moment, and theres one song imparticular that requires offbeat bass during the chorus to create a "happy hardcore" effect (im not sure if thats recognised in america, if not just think very fast hip hop)

in this part, the drummer is playing a very basic kick-hihat-kick-hihat but at quite a speed. and i just cannot get myself out of the habbit of locking onto that bass drum when i need to be in time with the hi hat. i can finger roll the octaves just about but it takes away from the overall feel having a roling line instead of jolty offbeat, and even with that i struggle because of the high tempo.

what im asking is do you guys have any advice on learning to keep with an off beat? My drummer is very helpful, we've gone through everything at different paces and the only time i can lock on is when im literally staring at his sticks and making a visual assosiation with when im playing.
It also helps if he swaps the high hat for say a tom, just easier to lock with.

I do apologise if any of the above isnt clear! i realised when i started writing this that trying to describe sounds isnt going to be easy! we've knocked together a scratch track and ill get a link to that asap.

thanks in advance!

Ste

I suffer from the same problem sometimes; my fingers have a natural tendency to want to play the downbeats.

When I'm constantly forced to play on the backbeats, I find it really helpful to tap my foot to the downbeats. That way, I substitute one physical action that my body feels compelled to make on the downbeats (i.e. actually playing a note) with another (tapping foot).

[Joe P]

I might suggest MUTING on the downbeat (if it fits with the song). I'll sometimes wheel my hand back and rather smack the strings for a 'violent' - a 'hardcore'-mute!

So instead of thinking something like "wait-pluck wait-pluck..", you're thinking "smack! then pluck; smack! then pluck...". Know what I mean? -like then in your mind you're still putting the force on the downbeat.

Joe

[Ste_m3]

Originally Posted by Joe P

I might suggest MUTING on the downbeat (if it fits with the song). I'll sometimes wheel my hand back and rather smack the strings for a 'violent' - a 'hardcore'-mute!

So instead of thinking something like "wait-pluck wait-pluck..", you're thinking "smack! then pluck; smack! then pluck...". Know what I mean? -like then in your mind you're still putting the force on the downbeat.

Joe

thanks joe, ive tried this but unfortunatly due to the speed of the song i can only actually fit the first mute in before i need to be concentrating on keeping up again!

to give you some idea im pretty sure the tempo is around that of the main beat of dragonforce's through the fire and the flames between the snare and hi hat on most parts. the song isnt of that nature at all, but thats all i can compare to at this minute in time!

The foot tapping idea sounds like it might work, ill have a bash!

Ive also had someone suggest i use a plectrum and only play the upstrokes but i just canny get used to having a bit of plastic between me fingers!

[JimmyM]

Get a metronome and set it to half speed, then practice the tricky line and gradually build speed until you get it. Almost everything can be accomplished if you practice it as slowly as you can play it perfect, then gradually increase your speed.

[Nairb]

Think this (If your drummer is in 4-4 time, which most are): "1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND". so instead of 1 2 3 4, think of the ANDs instead. Then come in on the AND of 1. Or, when you tap your foot, think of when your foot hits the peak of its tap. Hope this helps.

[DocBop]

Just sit at home with a metronome and tap your foot and sing one-and, two-and, three-and, four-and. Focus on the And's, even sing them a little louder to start feeling them. Focus on your foot and feel it at up postion. Start real slow and gradually build up speed. Now repeat this time only sing the And's. You should start to be feel that up pulse. Now instead of singing And's start clapping them. Make sure they are when you foot is up to check yourself. Now put on some music and clap along on the And's till you can do it smoothly and groove on upbeats. Now pickup your bass find a simple song and play all roots on the And's. By now you should have a feel for And's.

Muting you make want to work on right hand finger muting. There are Gary Willis videos floating around that explain it.

Start trying to feel the upbeat with other parts of you body. Some do them with shoulder bouncing. Another way is instead of tapping your foot do a little shuffle with feet. That is how Duck Dunn got his nickname, and other like Jaco would get the chicken head going. Find something that feel easy and natural. If suggest this because sometimes when standing and playing tapping your foot isn't easy, so get your body going as your metronome.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Get a metronome and set it to half speed, then practice the tricky line and gradually build speed until you get it. Almost everything can be accomplished if you practice it as slowly as you can play it perfect, then gradually increase your speed.

+1 Anything worth doing is worth practicing slowly.

[Otso]

Yk-si, kak-si, kol-me, nel-jä (=one, two, three, four)
easy for us Finnish folks. .

[PilbaraBass]

I build speed using a drum machine...

for "offbeat"...and syncopated rhythms, first, learn them SLOW, and gradually build speed...

also a good trick to get the fingers into the "upbeat" mode straight away, is to think of your fingers as picks and pull them across the strings in the same thought process as up-picking with a pick....

[PilbaraBass]

Originally Posted by Otso

Yk-si, kak-si, kol-me, nel-jä (=one, two, three, four)
easy for us Finnish folks. .

one-mate, two-mate, three-mate, four-mate
easy for the Aussie folks...LOL

[stz]

Happy hardcore

I think it is called Gabba in the states. I am envious of you because you have a drummer who can presumably play it without making it sound like messy hell. I played a drum and bass set with a celebrated 'awesome drummer' and I thought there was something wrong with me and only me. "what the crap is he doing with the snare? this isn't rhythmic at all!"

[Blunt]

The old foot tap is of incredible value. Down is the beat up is the off. Also move man. Bounce up and down. feel it

[Ste_m3]

Originally Posted by stz

Happy hardcore

I think it is called Gabba in the states. I am envious of you because you have a drummer who can presumably play it without making it sound like messy hell. I played a drum and bass set with a celebrated 'awesome drummer' and I thought there was something wrong with me and only me. "what the crap is he doing with the snare? this isn't rhythmic at all!"

yes! its not a whole drum and bass set, just one chorus that we've decided needs a happy hardcore feel.
Ive had a word with our drummer and he's more than happy to take an hour or so with me to build up some tempos every practice and ill see how it goes from there! may very well incorporate the fot tapping-heap bopping-shoulder dropping ways of the bass aswell! hehe.

thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated

[Joe P]

Originally Posted by Otso

Yk-si, kak-si, kol-me, nel-jä (=one, two, three, four)
easy for us Finnish folks. .

Cool!

[monkrock]

Originally Posted by stz

I think it is called Gabba in the states.

if you mistake happy hardcore for gabber anywhere, you'll get smacked.

although they are very similar genres. just very different audiences and they inspire very different emotional responses

about the upbeats, i sometimes 'twitch' my index on the downbeat and then pluck with my middle.