Major, Minor and Pentatonic Scales

[DeclanG]

Hi all,

This will sound like a very amateur question for someone with 15 years behind him on a bass but here goes! Basically, i have never officially learnt the scales. By officially, i mean i bought the grade books many years ago, use scales in my basslines but never learnt them by name/from different fretboard positions etc. I have an audition for the BIMM School of Music on Saturday and the 3 scales in the title are the main ones being assessed. While i would consider myself a fairly advanced bass player in technique and general ability, this has me worried as im quite weak on theory. I have been going through the grade books and while the basic scales are fine, it goes through alot more in depth stuff in the later grades which for me to plow into the memory at this stage is asking a bit much. My question anyway is for anyone who has done an audition like this. What way do they usually assess you on these? A simple "play each scale in C" type thing or would they go alot further into it?

Any advice would be brilliant.

Cheers,

Dec.

[Skitch it!]

So do you know the patterns for Maj, Min and Pentatonic scales?
In moveable patterns, it won't make a lot of difference which key they ask for (but I would imagine it will be more than one) if you have a particular scale pattern memorised, you can move it into any key you like.

[Scott McC]

I've been in your position. They'll ask you to do things like "Play a 2 octave Db major scale ascending and descending". It's fun stuff to work on. There is only a few different shapes that all the scales fall into it, you'll kill it.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Scott McC

I've been in your position. They'll ask you to do things like "Play a 2 octave Db major scale ascending and descending". It's fun stuff to work on. There is only a few different shapes that all the scales fall into it, you'll kill it.

i'd advise against relying on shapes and actually learn all the notes and be able to recognize them on the bass. if they say "Play a 2 octave Db major scale ascending and descending" but they add "and start on the 3rd note of the scale," but you only practiced it starting on the root, you'll at least know where the notes are even if you can't play it really fast. but if you rely on shapes, you're going to end up drawing a blank.

[Hellbastard]

Jimmy's advice is a very good one.

Another way is to learn how to construct scales; each scale needs either half or whole steps. Learn how to play those half or whole steps on the bass starting from any position and finding as many ways as you can to play each pattern eg: on the same string, on two different strings, skipping strings, etc. So if you learn how to construct a Major scale you'll know, that no matter which Note is required you'll be able to construct the pattern for the scale.

The Scales you need to learn are built like this:

Major
C D E F G A B C
W W 1/2 W W W 1/2

Natural Minor
C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
W 1/2 W W 1/2 W W

Harmonic Minor:
C D Eb F G Ab B C
W 1/2 W W W W1/2 1/2

Melodic Minor:

C D Eb F G A B C
W 1/2 W W W W 1/2

Major Pentatonic

C D E G A C
W W W1/2 W W1/2

Minor Pentatonic

C Eb F G Bb C
W1/2 W W W1/2 W

[Skitch it!]

Well, I'd be prepared to learn both, but if someone asked me to play Db Major starting on the 3rd degree, I'd immediately think F Phrygian over 2 octaves and it would be done immediately, or I would think in the key of Db Major.
I would find this a lot easier to remember than tones and semitones in sequence at the time.

I'm a big fan of Gary Willis's approach to harmony and as far as shape association is concerned. Most of my jobs have been very fast work, as in learning 25 songs in 3 days by a band I don't particularly like, in which I've found modal knowledge and shape association invaluable for memorising and especially for on the spot transposition.

I don't think they would ask you to play from the 3rd degree over 2 octaves at this stage but you can't be sure there.

Horses for courses but I wouldn't advise against any approach that works best for you, you'll find your own method that you relate to easiest, but I would consider learning the Maj Scale Modes and memorise by pattern as well as construction, they will help you out in quick information transfer, very quickly imo.

[Fergie Fulton]

Of course it should be realised that you are going BIMM to learn if you get in, so normally an entrance audition is about seeing your skills, strengths, and weakness so they can target what you know and what you need to know, and in theory that means understand and don't understand. I have never agreed with the idea that someone is not good enough to study....is that not the idea here...to learn and improve???

[DeclanG]

Cheers guys for all the advice. Very much appreciated. Thats my thinking also Fergie. I would presume they want to make sure that you will be committed to it if you get in and that you have some sort of natural musical instinct and so will learn. I just dont want to go in there thinking i have it covered and finding out im completely lost.

Hellbastard, thanks for those. I understand the full/half step jumps alright but on the spot being asked to skip strings etc as you say could catch me out. I suppose just keep doing them over and over in different formats until its jammed in there.

I also have to prepare a 4 min live piece for them which i was thinking of in 2 ways. Either something fast and technical that looks kinda flash but is a risk, or something more moderate/slow but solid on timing/fingering etc. I think something in between that im still comfortable with is the best option tho as i dont think they are looking for you to be 100mph around the fretboard but also expect a little more than Wonderwall

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by DeclanG

Cheers guys for all the advice. Very much appreciated. Thats my thinking also Fergie. I would presume they want to make sure that you will be committed to it if you get in and that you have some sort of natural musical instinct and so will learn. I just dont want to go in there thinking i have it covered and finding out im completely lost.

Hellbastard, thanks for those. I understand the full/half step jumps alright but on the spot being asked to skip strings etc as you say could catch me out. I suppose just keep doing them over and over in different formats until its jammed in there.

I also have to prepare a 4 min live piece for them which i was thinking of in 2 ways. Either something fast and technical that looks kinda flash but is a risk, or something more moderate/slow but solid on timing/fingering etc. I think something in between that im still comfortable with is the best option tho as i dont think they are looking for you to be 100mph around the fretboard but also expect a little more than Wonderwall

Normally its content and quality content that will impress.
Players like myself and JimmyM have seen it all before so to speak, and in particular players with little experience or from a small "pond" where they are considered "world class" find their failings in what they do when the get in to the "big outside world" where they are mediocre at best. The audition panel will be the same, what they are looking for is substance, melody and harmony, not chops or speed, they to will have seen it all. Music is about substance, originality and quality if you have that, the job is 90% done in my eyes.. the reason you are going to school is to learn what to do with these skills, hone them, and support them with quantifiable education. Good luck and all the best with it.

[DeclanG]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Normally its content and quality content that will impress.
Players like myself and JimmyM have seen it all before so to speak, and in particular players with little experience or from a small "pond" where they are considered "world class" find their failings in what they do when the get in to the "big outside world" where they are mediocre at best. The audition panel will be the same, what they are looking for is substance, melody and harmony, not chops or speed, they to will have seen it all. Music is about substance, originality and quality if you have that, the job is 90% done in my eyes.. the reason you are going to school is to learn what to do with these skills, hone them, and support them with quantifiable education. Good luck and all the best with it.

Cheers man. Would say i would give my right arm to get into this course but that may pose some problems down the road

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Of course it should be realised that you are going BIMM to learn if you get in, so normally an entrance audition is about seeing your skills, strengths, and weakness so they can target what you know and what you need to know, and in theory that means understand and don't understand. I have never agreed with the idea that someone is not good enough to study....is that not the idea here...to learn and improve???

There might be the difference, I'd have to say, when I auditioned for the Institute in '95, it wasn't about your weaknesses, if you were not up to scratch for the entry requirements in reading uptake/scales/styles/, you didn't get in, that's how that entry audition was ime, jus' saying.

[jmac]

I recommend visiting the "Ask Anthony Wellington" section of TB.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

There might be the difference, I'd have to say, when I auditioned for the Institute in '95, it wasn't about your weaknesses, if you were not up to scratch for the entry requirements in reading uptake/scales/styles/, you didn't get in, that's how that entry audition was ime, jus' saying.

I know that is how the sort it out, it was the same for me, but...... part of that thinking is that they don't want "no pass" or "failed" students or they want students that will thrive on the education????? LOL call me cynical.
Maybe its that the teachers/schools need a certain level to build on and can only relate information at a certain standard.
The idea that you deny those that need it and seek it out seems strange to me.

For me it is just the irony that those that need the experience of the education don't get it because they are not good enough.
A bit like if your un-well then those more healthy than you get treated. I am all for raising standards to bring those that need it and want it up to scratch. It is sometimes the case that this drives the them to the internet or "teachers" with dubious teaching ideas and flawed methods.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

I know that is how the sort it out, it was the same for me, but...... part of that thinking is that they don't want "no pass" or "failed" students or they want students that will thrive on the education????? LOL call me cynical.
Maybe its that the teachers/schools need a certain level to build on and can only relate information at a certain standard.
The idea that you deny those that need it and seek it out seems strange to me.

For me it is just the irony that those that need the experience of the education don't get it because they are not good enough.
A bit like if your un-well then those more healthy than you get treated. I am all for raising standards to bring those that need it and want it up to scratch. It is sometimes the case that this drives the them to the internet or "teachers" with dubious teaching ideas and flawed methods.

Yes, I will say that audition for the Institute toughened up after the state grant connection through Thames Valley University in '94ish making it viable to award grants for study there. I think they probably had to feedback a lot on the processes to the authority since it was a new undertaking, that year there were 16 places available.

It's a long time back, I really don't know the requirement/s now, the Institute was quite a small thing at that time, it expanded later with the grant availability for study and University accredited Qualifications.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

Yes, I will say that audition for the Institute toughened up after the state grant connection through Thames Valley University in '94ish making it viable to award grants for study there. I think they probably had to feedback a lot on the processes to the authority since it was a new undertaking, that year there were 16 places available.

It's a long time back, I really don't know the requirement/s now, the Institute was quite a small thing at that time, it expanded later with the grant availability for study and University accredited Qualifications.

Of course if placements are limited you need a system to grade applicants...that did not occur to me. I am from the 70s where the the balance was good for those seeking music education. I suppose the idea that if you pay you can come and learn may have been overtaken by "grant" culture.

i'm sure it is and will continue to be a subject of debate about the benefits of a musical education, for me you can't beat it if you are serious about music.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Of course if placements are limited you need a system to grade applicants...that did not occur to me. I am from the 70s where the the balance was good for those seeking music education. I suppose the idea that if you pay you can come and learn may have been overtaken by "grant" culture.

i'm sure it is and will continue to be a subject of debate about the benefits of a musical education, for me you can't beat it if you are serious about music.

I don't know about the situation now, but at the time the 'grant' was quite minimal, you went out and got gig's if you wanted to eat better

[DeclanG]

Heading in 20 mins for it. Thx for the help guys and fingers crossed. Absolutely bricking it! Played in front of thousands of people without a care many times but playing in front of 2 today and im nervous as ever!

[DeclanG]

Well, went very well i think. Was only asked to do each scale over 2 octaves in G and he seemed very impressed with my timekeeping in 9/8 in the performance piece so all good. From the information session it seems like a great course so really hope i get in. Wont know until May tho which is a bit of a killer!