Maxed-out Technique?

[Insomnia_Junkie]

When it comes down to it, can anyone be the next Flea, Jaco, or Billy etc...? Do some bassists just don't have the physical or mental capacity to become that "great". I understand being recognized as a famous bassist is relative, but the reason I am asking is because I play and practice constantly and it seems I just about hit my plateau where I can't get any better (faster fingers, faster fretting, plucking, slapping etc.) So the question I have is if the majority of us have a "peaking" point in our bass skills, or if I just keep at it will I eventually nail that impossible song perfectly and absolutely flawless?

[crazyguy832]

You can always improve, but not always in the way you imagine. Everyone's limits are different. There's a reason athletes don't all ahve the exact same time in races or scores in competitive sports... we're all different. Some of us are better at some things than others, some of us kinda suck.

Is there a plateau? Absolutely. However, I doubt you've hit it. Just because you can't get faster doesn't mean you can't get better (tone, consistency, accuracy, etc.).

Speed is not the limiter, it's your own ability to think up new ways of doing things.

[Ammioz77]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

You can always improve, but not always in the way you imagine. Everyone's limits are different. There's a reason athletes don't all ahve the exact same time in races or scores in competitive sports... we're all different. Some of us are better at some things than others, some of us kinda suck.

Is there a plateau? Absolutely. However, I doubt you've hit it. Just because you can't get faster doesn't mean you can't get better (tone, consistency, accuracy, etc.).

Speed is not the limiter, it's your own ability to think up new ways of doing things.

Excellently said! "All men are created equal"... isn't true... its what you do with what you have that makes you great!

[megadethjohn]

The best thing to do when you hit a plateau is to move in an entirely different direction. Are you a blues guy? Play some funk. Are you into funk-rock? Learn some death metal. Better yet, if you play anything try copping some Miles Davis trumpet lines on your bass.

[MarkTAW]

Just because you've hit a plateau doesn't mean that this is THE plateau you'll hit for life. Everyone's playing style is constantly evolving.

Some of what separates us from the "greats" is that they're writing all the time, while we're copping their licks.

In interview, John Paul Jones said "The difference between Led Zeppelin and all of the imitators is that we were listening to all kinds of music while the Led Zeppelin imitators were only listening to us. Every music in the world faces the same basic problems, but solves them in unique and interesting ways." (paraphrased)

Do you think Flea would have become Flea if he was primarily listening to bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers?

[ksandvik]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

Just because you've hit a plateau doesn't mean that this is THE plateau you'll hit for life. Everyone's playing style is constantly evolving.

Some of what separates us from the "greats" is that they're writing all the time, while we're copping their licks.

In interview, John Paul Jones said "The difference between Led Zeppelin and all of the imitators is that we were listening to all kinds of music while the Led Zeppelin imitators were only listening to us. Every music in the world faces the same basic problems, but solves them in unique and interesting ways." (paraphrased)

Do you think Flea would have become Flea if he was primarily listening to bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers?

Exactly. The way go grow is to play totally different styles of music and incorporate these back into your own style. --Kent

[TeeMartin]

There is a plateau for everyone, but I don't think anyone has hit it yet.

[Pete C]

Hell, even play stuff that isn't meant for bass guitar. I recommend Mr.PC as a good starting point, that song will really stretch you if you learn it by ear.

As far as plateaus, I think the only thing that can limit your development is knowledge. A person with more theory knowledge will be able to progress further than someone that doesn't know as much for example.

[artistanbul]

everyone faces a block at some point. technical part is usually the easy stuff. the block is usually not knowing what to do, not having an exact aim, enthusiasm, motivation. once you have that, all it takes is working hard.

[LavendarSunrise]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

Just because you've hit a plateau doesn't mean that this is THE plateau you'll hit for life. Everyone's playing style is constantly evolving.

Some of what separates us from the "greats" is that they're writing all the time, while we're copping their licks.

In interview, John Paul Jones said "The difference between Led Zeppelin and all of the imitators is that we were listening to all kinds of music while the Led Zeppelin imitators were only listening to us. Every music in the world faces the same basic problems, but solves them in unique and interesting ways." (paraphrased)

Do you think Flea would have become Flea if he was primarily listening to bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers?

Exactly. The greats are always looking for new genres to listen to and learn from. Heck, in Jaco's solo in Havona, he quotes Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" (Measure's 5 & 6), "You are my Sunshine (Measures 14 & 15) and Pat Metheny's "Bright Size Life (Measure 33).

Also, something that no one else has really touched on yet is that what makes a musician like Jaco, Charley Parker, Stevie Ray Vaughan, etc. truely great is not just that they have great chops - it is more about how they use their chops to make a statement. So my advice to you is to work on your articulation and phrasing so that you can use the chops you have to get your musical voice across. Thats what prompted Miles to develop his Cool style.

Also, broaden the scope of the music you listen to and play.

[Fnord Explorer]

I hit a plateau before where I didn't get any faster, play any more technical, play scales in any more positions, etc. It seemed kind of frustrating that there were still things I couldn't do. I have some degree of physical limitation that I have to work around, but I still felt I should be better.

I took a break from "practicing bass". When I started, I put up to 12 hours a day into it during summer breaks so I progressed, and peaked fast. I found myself not that inspired to play bass as much so I started playing drums. It was new and fresh and I put almost as much effort into learning drums and had the same results: progressed fast (though haven't hit a "peak" yet) and was reinvigorated and had a new perspective. Suddenly, when I picked up the bass, it seemed I could suddenly do things I couldn't before. I've done that with guitar, keys, and ukulele.

Now I started playing fretless. I'm getting it pretty quickly because its new and I like to challenge myself. I already notice my right-hand technique is changing and my fretted playing is improving too.

Moral of the story: sometimes you don't plateau so much as get a little burnt out. Pick something else up; it will refresh you and put your mind in a different place musically. And when you go back to the bass you'll feel that tingle of newness and find yourself approaching in a whole different way.

[trb6pJM2]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

... Is there a plateau? Absolutely. However, I doubt you've hit it. Just because you can't get faster doesn't mean you can't get better (tone, consistency, accuracy, etc.).

Speed is not the limiter, it's your own ability to think up new ways of doing things.

indeed, two words, Michael Manring.

[Bruce Lindfield]

There's already been some great points in this thread!

Originally Posted by Insomnia_Junkie

When it comes down to it, can anyone be the next Flea, Jaco, or Billy etc...? Do some bassists just don't have the physical or mental capacity to become that "great".

I think anybody could do it - but you have to have determination, confidence and creativity - as well as "something to say" - music is not a sport - it is about communicating ideas to others - if you have no ideas, nothing to say - then it doesn't matter how good you are, technically.

Whereas people with a lot to say but little technical proficiency can overcome this - like Bob Dylan or many singer/songwriters who had little technical skill as players...

So - some of the most successful music/songs require very little technical skill to play.

I understand being recognized as a famous bassist is relative, but the reason I am asking is because I play and practice constantly and it seems I just about hit my plateau where I can't get any better (faster fingers, faster fretting, plucking, slapping etc.) So the question I have is if the majority of us have a "peaking" point in our bass skills, or if I just keep at it will I eventually nail that impossible song perfectly and absolutely flawless?

I would say - you need to stop seeing it as a competitive sport and see it as making music that people want to hear!

As people have said - listen to all sorts of music, transcribe what you like - learn what it is about that music that makes you like it? Try to write your own music that uses some of these ideas.

Play with other people as much as possible - learn to read music, study music theory - Flea has said how he is now studying Jazz, to develop himself further - Jaco was a great composer whose knowledge of Jazz theory was as good as anybody's at the time.

These are the kind of things that will make you a better musician and not just a technician.

[MarkTAW]

I don't believe in the "anyone can do anything" line we're constantly fed since childhood. We all have our natural inclinations and things we naturally enjoy. Mozart was a child prodigy who toured at the age of 4, playing some of Bach's more difficult pieces for kings & queens. Flea's family was musical - which is a recurring theme in some of the best musicians. Stevie Wonder grew up with the Funk Brothers as they were crafting all those amazing Motown hits.

If I had the time & inclination I would love to believe I could compose some amazing music, but the truth is, I've never written much of anything on my own. Everything I've written, everything significant anyway, was in response to what was going on around me. To me, music is at its best when it's a dialog with the other musicians & try as I might (not that I've really tried), I don't particularly enjoy turning it in to a monologue, and when I do, I'm always waiting for the other voice to come in and add to mine.

For example, I don't think Will Lee has any solo albums (but I could be wrong, it's not like I really pay attention to Will Lee much). The Led Zeppelin album "Presence" - which was written just by John Paul Jones and Robert Plant while Jimmy Page & John Bonham were off getting trashed somewhere is, IMHO, some of their weakest stuff. But the John Paul Jones album with Diamanda Galas is brilliant (if you don't own it, go out and buy it now if you're any kind of zep fan).

What I'm getting at is that just as we each have a different personality that comes out in the way we talk, in what we say when we post to forums like these, etc. we have different musical personalities. Some people go their whole lives never giving a great speech or writing a great novel or screenplay, but maybe become great debaters and "the life of the party" types, and so it is musically.

That said, I don't believe for a second the OP has hit his plateau, there is a definite way through it and there are exercises a good teacher could give you to break through that.

I read an interview somewhere where this guy was taking lessons by correspondence with a teacher in Boston (I could dig up the article if anyone is interested - I believe that teacher is still taking students), and this teacher threw all sorts of artificial pentatonic scales at him. Every week a new artificial pentatonic scale he had to familiarize himself with. Talk about ways of breaking through plateaus!

Perhaps blogs like A Chord A Day or Hurd Audio's Scale of the Day, though his stuff gets a bit out there & some of it can't be played on fretted instruments might inspire you.

[tswd]

Everybody's physical limits are different. Yes, there's absolutely a plateau you'll hit that you just can't get through. Fortunately, that doesn't really matter with music. Music isn't about setting world records for speed or endurance. It's about sounding good and putting on a good show.

Flea and Jaco aren't really known because of how fast they play. They're known because people like their music. A lot of people can play just as fast, and a lot of times even faster, than those guys. But their music doesn't have the same emotion and impact. That's the real difference.

[JustOpenYourMind]

There is one important thing to take into account, Neither Jaco, flea Billy Sheean or most top musicians were bedroom warriors, They just played music all their lives, played everywere in every band bar they could, and in those years of playing they eventually developped stamina, speed, accuracy and most of all a creativity in writting bass lines. A lot of kids play and play for hours in their bedrooms only learning covers of impossibly difficult songs. When they reach that goal they sure can play blazingliy fast but they can't come up with something original to save their lives. Playing an instrument is not only a physical thing and is not aonly about being fast and trying to impress others.

Everytime I see someone play some incredibly fast solo I'm wowed for the first 30 seconds, after that it is only fingers moving fast, much like watching someone juggling with 10 balls, it's impressive but it gets old real quick.

So back to the point. just play bass, play in bands and keep your chops to the level that you can play whats in your head, what YOU can come up with, anything more than that is a waste of time.

Don't worry, by the time you will have developped enough musical skills to come up with jaco parts on the fly, your physical ability to play the bass will be there from years of practice.

[Fnord Explorer]

Originally Posted by JustOpenYourMind

There is one important thing to take into account, Neither Jaco, flea Billy Sheean or most top musicians were bedroom warriors, They just played music all their lives, played everywere in every band bar they could, and in those years of playing they eventually developped stamina, speed, accuracy and most of all a creativity in writting bass lines. A lot of kids play and play for hours in their bedrooms only learning covers of impossibly difficult songs. When they reach that goal they sure can play blazingliy fast but they can't come up with something original to save their lives. Playing an instrument is not only a physical thing and is not aonly about being fast and trying to impress others.

Everytime I see someone play some incredibly fast solo I'm wowed for the first 30 seconds, after that it is only fingers moving fast, much like watching someone juggling with 10 balls, it's impressive but it gets old real quick.

So back to the point. just play bass, play in bands and keep your chops to the level that you can play whats in your head, what YOU can come up with, anything more than that is a waste of time.

Don't worry, by the time you will have developped enough musical skills to come up with jaco parts on the fly, your physical ability to play the bass will be there from years of practice.

+100


I definitely agree on the "wowing" technique thing. After awhile, a magician is just a guy with a rodent in his hat.

I'm way more inspired by players that do something interesting as opposed to challenging for its own sake. here are phyisical limits, but even if you hit it, there is no creative or stylistic plateau anywhere near that.

[ksandvik]

Yes, I totally agree with the two postings above.

One of my current favorite players is David LaRue, he could play fast, but he's mostly tasty and interesting concerning bass lines. --Kent