Modes Question

[Donsmoth]

Right, I'm a bit confused about modes. I've got a basic grasp of them (Like that you'd use a mode for minor chords and for major ones)

And the penny's just dropped that modes count for certain intervals of the key, for instance In G:

G's Ionian
Am would be Dorian
B would be Phyrgian (Not entirely sure if that mode's major or minor)
C would be Lydian
D would be Mixolydian
E would be Aeolian
F# would be Locrian (Again, not sure if major/minor)

My question is this, though:

If you're following the modes right, and if you're still playing in the key of G and someone throws say, A Major down, can you still use the dorian mode or would you have to play A Ionian because A Major is not in the key of G?

[somegeezer]

"If you're following the modes right, and if you're still playing in the key of G and someone throws say, A Major down, can you still use the dorian mode or would you have to play A Ionian because A Major is not in the key of G?"

Depends what you want it to sound like. Try both and see which you like best. Sometimes a bit of dissonance sounds good. ;]

[devine]

Yes you should play A ionian (or A Lydian, A Mixlolydian). A major has a C sharp within the chord (the 3rd), A minor has a C (the minor 3rd). Obviously all rules can be broken... but generally if you play a major scale over a minor chord (from the same route, as in A major over A minor) it's really gonna stink!

You should've posted this in the 'general instruction' part of the forum as there's lots of discussions about similar topics.

Easy,

scott.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com

http://www.scottdevinemusic.com

[RedLeg]

I
ii
iii
IV
V
vi
vii
upper case major (maj7/maj6/dom7)
lower case minor (min7/min6/min7b5)

[Elrend]

You could play dorian if you refrained from playing the third and seventh, but playing the A Ionian (or Lydian) scale would be the best choice.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by RedLeg

I
ii
iii
IV
V
vi
vii
upper case major (maj7/maj6/dom7)
lower case minor (min7/min6/min7b5)

+1 IMO start using the numbering system to associate with chords/modes, if you are working with anybody that has that deal (especially in Jazz) a II V I in G is basically a standard shorthand version of chord movement, faster/less information to absorb, more time to think about it and utilise.

Does anyone remember the name for the modal number system please? Mohegan? Something like that? I can't remember : )

[mambo4]

This thread should be moved to General Instruction.

Originally Posted by Donsmoth

if you're still playing in the key of G and someone throws say, A Major down, can you still use the dorian mode or would you have to play A Ionian because A Major is not in the key of G?

From a strict theory view, If A major comes up you technically aren't in the key of G any more.
If you took the time to work out what possible keys you might be modulating into,
and from that work out possible modes you could use for that Amaj chord,
it would be a valuable learning exercise, no doubt.

But a seasoned player who is in the key of G and sees an A major chord will not worry about modes at all.
They'll think something like" I can use A, E, maybe C# if there's time, and maybe some other notes to connect with the rest of the chords..what chord am I coming from and what chord's next?"

I'd say that Most pop/rock songs use chords that 'violate' strict confinement to keys.
Chords that 'should' be minor get replaced with major or dominant chords all the time.
This is exactly why applying modes to chords is less practical than simply following chord tones and working out passing tones with your ear and style/genre understanding.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by mambo4

This thread should be moved to General Instruction.



From a strict theory view, If A major comes up you technically aren't in the key of G any more.
If you took the time to work out what possible keys you might be modulating into,
and from that work out possible modes you could use for that Amaj chord,
it would be a valuable learning exercise, no doubt.

But a seasoned player who is in the key of G and sees an A major chord will not worry about modes at all.
They'll think something like" I can use A, E, maybe C# if there's time, and maybe some other notes to connect with the rest of the chords..what chord am I coming from and what chord's next?"

I'd say that Most pop/rock songs use chords that 'violate' strict confinement to keys.
Chords that 'should' be minor get replaced with major or dominant chords all the time.
This is exactly why applying modes to chords is less practical than simply following chord tones and working out passing tones with your ear and style/genre understanding.

+1....... Key centres and substitution thereof....IMO?

[Mark Wilson]

You mentioned about not knowing quality.
Bascially, the modes follow the Diatonic chords. So if you take a scale (C D E F G A B C) for example, and stack in thirds, you get the quality!

i - Ionian - Cmaj7 (C E G B)
ii - Dorian - Dmin7 (D F A C)
iii- Phyrigian - Emin7 (E G B D)
iv - Lydian - Fmaj7(#11) (F A C E)
v - Mixolydian - G7 (G B D F)
vi - Aeolian (Nat. Minor) - Amin7 (A C E G)
vii - Locrian - Bmin7(b5) (B D F A)

Hope this helps

[wes stephenson]

is it a dominant chord? most of the time if the ii chord of a major key is major then its usually a dominant chord or II7 if you will. in this case you would use the mixolydian scale and if you wanted to be real technical mixolydian with a #11...

[Bassguy87564]

are we talking about tonicization now. What I use modes for is navigating the finger board so I know where every note in that specific key is. If there are chords that is not in the key I change the key that I am playing in. and here are the chords that go with every mode its good to know just to know what the tonal center is but I do not use it to improvise.
Ionian - major7
Dorian - (flat)3rd, dominant 7th - so its a minor 7th chord with a major 6th
Phrygian - Minor (flat)2
Lydian - major7(#11)
mixolydian - dominant - major (flat)7th
Aeolian - natural minor
Locrian - half diminished - (flat)2 and (flat)5 with a dom 7th
and this is all the chords for for the major modes

[Bassguy87564]

Originally Posted by wes stephenson

is it a dominant chord? most of the time if the ii chord of a major key is major then its usually a dominant chord or II7 if you will. in this case you would use the mixolydian scale and if you wanted to be real technical mixolydian with a #11...

you are talking about secondary dominants or V/V all this means is that the tonal center changes for how ever long the chord is but mixolydian #11 now your starting to talk about melodic minor modes only worry about that when you are using melodic minor

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by Donsmoth

Right, I'm a bit confused about modes. I've got a basic grasp of them (Like that you'd use a mode for minor chords and for major ones)

And the penny's just dropped that modes count for certain intervals of the key, for instance In G:

G's Ionian
Am would be Dorian
B would be Phyrgian (Not entirely sure if that mode's major or minor)
C would be Lydian
D would be Mixolydian
E would be Aeolian
F# would be Locrian (Again, not sure if major/minor)

My question is this, though:

If you're following the modes right, and if you're still playing in the key of G and someone throws say, A Major down, can you still use the dorian mode or would you have to play A Ionian because A Major is not in the key of G?

really, if your in G and a C# appears in a chord that has A as the root, its going to sound like you modulted up a step- wich is acceptable, and totally common and all that.

when you say your not sure whats major and minor, really just whatever the third is away from the tonic determines weather your key is major or minor. phrygian is minor, because in B phrygian the third scale degree is D, wich is a minor third above B.

[timbledum]

This is where pentatonic scales come in. Although no substitute for in-depth musical knowledge, they can be a useful tool for when this kinda thing happens. See, the key thing with pentatonic scales is they only keep the common notes with major or minor modes. For example, with the major modes the notes changing in between them are the 7th and the 4th. These notes are omitted from the major pentatonic. So when a major chord comes up from nowhere, you can know what notes you can play for sure. Just a practical tip.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by timbledum

This is where pentatonic scales come in. Although no substitute for in-depth musical knowledge, they can be a useful tool for when this kinda thing happens. See, the key thing with pentatonic scales is they only keep the common notes with major or minor modes. For example, with the major modes the notes changing in between them are the 7th and the 4th. These notes are omitted from the major pentatonic. So when a major chord comes up from nowhere, you can know what notes you can play for sure. Just a practical tip.

+1 And a good one, it can be more 'open' sounding spelling things out in maj/min modality rather than tones and semi's/chromaticism for 'bounce off' to where your going/ a kickoff tool for improv to my ears.

[sammyp]

if you find an A major chord in a tune that's in the Key of G than you should prolly look at that as being a V of V .....A is the V chord of D .....D is the V of G ....hence V of V ...so ......

the best fit for A major in a G tune is going to be A mixolydian which comes from the D major scale ....not A ionian. \

the reason the fit is best is because you have less altered notes from the G major scale ....if you go from the tune being in G to a passing chord of A major being the V of V in G then you only alter one note of the G scale = C to C# to get your A mixo feel ....

if you shove A ionian in there you got two alterations out side the G scale - C# and G# ....woo ....the G tonic just got tossed out ....so you see ...an ionian line will sound farther "out" than a mixolydian line when it comes to an A chord in a G key!