Moving to fretless... My hand is killing me!

[livinitup0]

Ok so about a year ago I started getting serious playing fretless and I'm still having some issues with intonation. My hands aren't the biggest and I try to stick to the 1 finger per fret rule but on a fretless it seriously stretches my reach to do this... I mean I can do it... But it's not comfortable... If I'm sight reading or doing anything that takes my attention away playing in tune I start going back to my comfortable hand position, which on a fretted is fine, but on a fretless obviously makes me play out of tune.

I guess I'm just hoping some of you guys went through this too and eventually your reach stretched out and you got comfortable... But man... It's humbling going from playing at an advanced level to having my confidence shot.

Anyone have some tips or pointers?

[Skitch it!]

This is why I prefer fretless basses in 5 string versions basically, so you transfer up the neck to a more comfortable scale.

The bottom line is that it is quite a stretch to intonate properly within the first 5 frets with the 1 finger per fret method. If it's too much, I try and find way around it utilizing open strings for a break in position for a second, if possible. Otherwise I'll use 1,2+4 over 3 frets or other combinations to try and release.

I remember reading an interview with a name fretless player a while back, complaining that the new guys were not stretching enough within the first 5 frets, can't remember the name.

Obviously keeping your thumb just below the center line of the back of the neck, extends your fingers forward over the board to a fuller span.

[FretlessMainly]

I'm not a big proponent of absolutes like right and wrong, but 1, 2, 4 is the way to go on fretless, at least in the lower half of the neck.

Get used to forming one whole step with your index finger and pinky. Your second finger fills in the chromatic note in between. You'll notice that neither the second nor third fingers is perfectly situated to finger this in between note, but if you pull your elbow into your body a couple of inches and rotate your palm toward your path of vision a bit, your second finger can hit the spot perfectly.

[Skitch it!]

I find I pivot my thumb angle back and forth, depending which side of the grid I need the stretch for 1 finger per fret in the lower registers, just shifting angle to help the stretch. I also release the finger/s off the board and contract shape slightly as soon as the note duration is played, on to the next.

I have quite large hands but those two points help a lot.

This Willis tip is also an important point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoHEqQzbGAc

[kraigo]

At a certain point perfect becomes the enemy of good. Play any way you have to to be in tune and not hurt yourself. "Correct technique" is well on its way to giving you an RSI.

KO

[NoFretsNoWorry]

Here are a few things that have helped me over the years:

1) left hand position and technique is virtually identical to fretted playing! If it didn't hurt playing fretted, it shouldn't hurt playing fretless! This is most important!

2) invest in a visible tuner and place it over the charts you are reading; preferably a tuner with a large screen (like a rackmount tuner; I like strobes best)

3) in frets 1-5 you will need to shift your entire hand position to accommodate changes; very few can stretch their entire hand over this fret range even when chording.

I believe with practice and proper ear training, you will find that for now, and from being fretted earlier, you ear focuses so much on intonation, that some of the fundamental hand positions are being overlooked.

Once your intonation comes online more naturally so to speak, your hand will fall back into its fundamental positioning and alleviate some of the problems described.

I actually found that playing fretless corrected some fundamental hand positioning issues I initially had when even playing fretted bass. In other words, fretless forced me to hold my left hand in better fundamental positions that frets seemed to cover up.

When playing fretless, I always keep my tuner on when performing to check on-the-fly tuning!

Good Luck!

[livinitup0]

How is your left hand identical? You don't play directly on top of frets...

Thanks for the tips guys!

[NoFretsNoWorry]

Originally Posted by livinitup0

How is your left hand identical? You don't play directly on top of frets...

Thanks for the tips guys!

This is a great point! Thanks! Allow me to clarify

Your hand position with respect to the fret markers is slightly different yes, but the rest of your hand shape is identical.

The idea is this: your hand shape, its stretch, and extension is identical when playing fretted or fretless. Your "fretting position" (intonation) is slightly shifted to accommodate minor differences in fret line positions when compared to actual frets. But your hand shape remains the same.

Imagine this: what is the shape of your hand whether you play in front of the frets, on top of the frets, or behind the frets? Answer: the hand shape is the same for all three, only your hand position with respect to fret location has changed.

Left hand: overall shape is limited by the size and extension of your hand. Fret spacing changes, so intonation positioning of your hand must shift as a unit.

Visualize shifting your entire hand as a unit (especially on frets 1-5) as opposed to stretching your fingers out in painful extension.

Hope this helps!

It's nice to see people interested in fretless!

PEACE

[Skitch it!]

I have been using this Bach piece as a gauge for 1 finger per fret intonation practice now and again. Not in Cello tuning but standard, which makes a big difference to the fingering, it's quite awkward. On a 4 string, I find it v. difficult to intonate it well after a certain point, too much of a stretch over a period of time. On a 5 string, starting on the G - 8th fret of the B string in that range is much easier to get around. If you play fretless a lot, I would suggest considering a 5 string, I don't know if you already have one?

Cliff Engel | Free Bass Lessons - Solo Bass Guitar: J.S. Bach - "Cello Suite No. 1 - Prelude In G Major"

[NoFretsNoWorry]

Originally Posted by livinitup0

How is your left hand identical? You don't play directly on top of frets...

Thanks for the tips guys!

When playing fretted bass, your left hand fingers should be placed directly behind the fret (with respect to the nut).

Say if you were between the 2nd and 3rd fret E string going for a G, you finger should be placed closest to the 3rd fret, against the back of the fret (side facing the 2nd fret; nut side), and not on top.

If this doesn't make sense (and I admit it is difficult to advise/interpret via text only on these posts; use at your own risk disclaimer!) I highly recommend a lesson from a skilled fretless bassist in person so as to prevent injury!

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by NoFretsNoWorry

Your hand position with respect to the fret markers is slightly different yes, but the rest of your hand shape is identical.

The idea is this: your hand shape, its stretch, and extension is identical when playing fretted or fretless.

I suppose that this is one way to do it, but I can assure you that this is not the case for me, and I've played fretted for 31 years, double bass for 20 years, and fretless electric for 13 years.

On fretted electric, the one finger per fret technique is as easy as pie. On fretless electric, I use 1, 2, 4. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I rotate my wrist a bit on FL to facilitate the placing of the second finger spot on for the note halfway between the whole step defined by my index finger and pinky. At least on the lower half of the neck. Above that, you can revert back to fretted technique more readily.

[NoFretsNoWorry]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I suppose that this is one way to do it, but I can assure you that this is not the case for me, and I've played fretted for 31 years, double bass for 20 years, and fretless electric for 13 years.

On fretted electric, the one finger per fret technique is as easy as pie. On fretless electric, I use 1, 2, 4. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I rotate my wrist a bit on FL to facilitate the placing of the second finger spot on for the note halfway between the whole step defined by my index finger and pinky. At least on the lower half of the neck. Above that, you can revert back to fretted technique more readily.

We are nearly identical in experience on electric, upright, and fretless! Fretted:31 yrs, Fretless: 23yrs, Upright: off and on for 20yrs for me.

If I am not mistaken, your 1,2,4 technique is a carry over from upright?

Let me ask you this: why should left hand technique change from electric fretted to electric fretless?

Even good fretted technique and hand position requires fretting directly against the back of the fret (with respect to the nut), doesn't it? Frets, fret lines....the intonation is the same, and a poorly fretted note chokes out with fret buzz doesn't it?

PEACE

[Skitch it!]

I find a fretted bass very forgiving compared to fretless in the lower registers. If I play a G major scale from G1 for instance on a fretted, my thumb doesn't have to adjust angle back and forth to make the stretches and the pinky plus others in reality are fretting around 2-3mm behind where the direct fret line would be, this on a fretted is no problem.

On fretless it takes far more angling to intonate well ime, I pivot the thumb angle and adjust the whole hand angle slightly by pivoting angle to allow the extended stretches.

This, plus tempered tuning to consider, to intonate the notes at the bottom scale of the neck well takes playing over the line slightly, at the top end of the register you back-off from the line slightly.

Common traits translate from fretted to fretless, but the on-point accuracy of pitching not so much imo.

I often use 1-2-4 for a lot of stuff, not just fretless.

Try that Bach piece played from G1 position and see what it takes to keep that finely intonated and flowing in that octave for the duration compared to a fretted, far from easy.

[Clef_de_fa]

With a lined fretless, I play exacly like a fretted bass. On a fretted bass I play over the frets and I don,t have any problems. I did it for 12 years like that.

The cello Suite are very fun to play, I did them all on my 6 strings basses.

[theretheyare]

I usually play 1,2,4 in the lower regions, for which the classic Simandl book is excellent study material. But generally I don't bother with what fingering goes where-the key is that any interval might pop up any time in any position with any finger in the neighborhood being the one that you might use-, so I have been much more busy with memorizing what I want an interval to SOUND like without looking or thinking, learning to trust my ears. Which finger I happen to use use I prefer to leave to a combination of pure chance and built up habit.

2 exercises I use:
-play a given interval up and down (say a Major sixth, a- f#) and find it all over the neck, wherever you can find it, without looking, just listen. Than take the same interval with different notes (c-a, e-c# etc) and do the same thing. Then take a different interval (octave, etc) and so on. Take your time, listen, switch off that metronome :-).

-play a given scale slowly (as slowly as possible-just so you fully hear each note you play) over one string over the full length of the string, up, then down. So with a 2 -octave neck, a C major scale on the d string starts at d and ends at d. Go to a different string, then try different scales.

The key with these exercises is: 1) play SLOW, the slower the harder, the better it is 2) do not look at the fretboard (close your eyes if you have to.)

I found this really hard in the beginning-but after a while I started to be able to pick the right notes out of thin air much more comfortably and assuredly.

As said, there are no absolutes.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by NoFretsNoWorry

Let me ask you this: why should left hand technique change from electric fretted to electric fretless?

Even good fretted technique and hand position requires fretting directly against the back of the fret (with respect to the nut), doesn't it?

The simple answer is that, no, my fretting technique is not the same for each finger - of course, most of the time I strive to finger the note just behind the fret, as you've indicated, but in reality, I play hard enough that I can properly stop a note just about anywhere in between the two frets in question. So, I can easily use the one finger per fret technique and play faster due to fewer position shifts relative to the 1,2,4 method.

Conversely, on fretless, I use the index and pinky as a one-step interval (a major 2nd, if you will) and rotate my palm sliightly so that my middle finger points slightly toward the body of the bass. This makes it drop naturally on the properly-intonated note in between the index finger and pinky.