musical background important?

[disenchant]

I recently had my bass teacher/band mate tell me that I was hard to train as a bassist because I didn't have a musical background. Then he said that he was never going to train another bassist that didn't have a musical background and is currently training a new bassist who used to play viola. He removed me from the band for suggesting he work on his vocals...because I don't have a musical background and he does and I don't know what I'm talking about. Also, it was HIS band and he wanted to be the lead singer and I was ruining his dream. However, it was not just me but many other people who listened to our demo that said he needed work or replacing. I was just repeating that info.

I thought that anyone could learn how to play a musical instrument provided they had a good instructor and the will to play. Not everyone will be a great musician, but anyone can learn.

A year ago I didn't know anything about music, never played anything before. Now I can read music on the bass and treble staff, read and play tab, name all the notes on the bass fretboard. I know all the major, minor and blues scales on the bass starting on any note. I can also play other scales including Jazz minor, Melodic, Hungarian Minor, Chromatic, Whole tone, Major Pentatonic, Minor Pentatonic, Diminished, etc plus all the modes including Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian etc. I know how to work out the Major and Minor scales by their Roman Numerals--but not quickly. I can play most songs that don't include slapping or plucking because I haven't figured that out yet. I usually memorize the entire song and can play it without music after only a few times through. I can play and sing at the same time. I have an innate sense of rhythm and am hardly ever off tempo--probably due to the years of dance training. I can play with a metronome, turn the metronome off mid-song, and then turn it back on and still be on beat...isn't that pretty good? Or can everyone do that?

I thought that was pretty good for a year...but I don't really know because like I said, I don't have a musical background so maybe that is NOT good.

Also, we tried many times to "jam" as a band and I just couldn't do it. I would ask this guy to tell me what the keynote was...or what chords he was using or what scale and he wouldn't tell me. He just said "you have to learn how to figure it out." Or he'd say "look at my fingers" but I'd just get confused. He said this was because I didn't have a musical background--but at that time I did know my scales. Is this how you're supposed to learn how to jam? Just figure it out?

Thanks for your insight!

[Albot]

In a sense you do have to figure it out. The basic concept of "Jamming" is hearing the other parts being played and then hearing a part in your head for you to play to that part and then playing what you hear in your head. Knowing all of the scales can be useful for jamming because you have a good grasp of the intervals between the chord changes in the jam, and you are right in a jam on a standard form (12 bar blues) calling out the root is definately called for. But, often in a free jam on a riff idea, you are free to play what comes to you by ear.

I'd say you have an excellent foundation built for yourself in one year. Just remember there is a freedom to music outside theory.
The stuff about not having a musical background is pompous b.s. sounds to me like you have one year of good musical background.

[Vandelay]

Originally Posted by disenchant

I thought that anyone could learn how to play a musical instrument provided they had a good instructor and the will to play. Not everyone will be a great musician, but anyone can learn.

I think you're exactly correct. Anyone can learn with a good instructor and some initiative. But it sounds like he's not fulfilling the role of "a good instructor". Seems like he has a an attitude problem. Asking for the chord progression is a standard and simple request -- he shouldn't make you feel stupid for asking. You might want to start looking for another instructor.

But at the same time, if you want to improve your ability to jam, you can always spend more time developing your "ear". Play along with a few of your favorite records, work on figuring out what they're doing, figure out the chord progression without the benefit of sheet music or tab. Then, using that knowledge, try a bit of improvising -- add a few licks that sound good to you. That will help too.

Good luck and don't lose that "will to play"!

[jamiefoxer]

sounds like the guy has some "ego" issues.

I would agree that, if I were to teach, having some musical background would be preferred because it expedites the acquisition of new knowledge and techniques, and therefore makes the lessons more productive. But, you got to start somewhere...all of us, even us pro musicians, were at once neophytes to music...so the idea that you can't teach someone without musical background is absurd.

his getting angry about you criticizing his vocals is revealing. Depends on the criticism, of course, but if you're knee-jerk response to criticism is "I know more than you, so shut up"...sounds like the guy has an unhealthy ego. The best are the best because they don't have the egos and because they're humble...and because they were humble, they learned and became better.

I'm a drummer by training...(percussionist too). I'm mostly self-taught on bass, and like you, I seem to have an innate sense of rhythm and tone. I play along to salsa/latin-jazz and jazz music daily, and I often pick up songs on the fly. Let me hear a song 2-3 times, and the 4th time, I can play along to it with 95% accuracy (in fact, I just did a bass substitute gig with a salsa band playing salsa classics, and I didn't need a single chart...all from my head). I don't want to seem arrogant, but nobody complained after my performance, and I got compliments. And, although I have musical background knowledge because of my percussion training, I still have a long way to go in reading musical notation, bass clef, the scales, doing chords, and learning how to slap and pop.

We're all on different levels. Don't let that egomaniac of a bandleader make you feel bad. A year ago, I couldn't do half of what I do today, and all it took was picking up the bass daily and playing along to music...little by little, I picked up little tricks here and there, and now, like with my computer keyboarding skills, my fingers just "seem to know" where they need to go and glide on the fretboard.

[IanStephenson]

Of course not having a musical background makes it harder to learn bass - you're having to learn the fundamentals, as well as the instrument. BUT we all went through that once upon a time, either on bass or some other instrument.

Maybe what he means is, that he's not good at teaching those things, and has so far avoided it by only working with students who've previous experience. A decent teacher will be able to adapt to teach you whatever YOU NEED RIGHT NOW.

I think either this guy is a jerk, or maybe just the two of you aren't right to work together - no way to tell with just your side of things, but either way I'd look around for a teacher that works for you...

Ian

[hyp.spec]

Originally Posted by disenchant

I recently had my bass teacher/band mate tell me that I was hard to train as a bassist because I didn't have a musical background. Then he said that he was never going to train another bassist that didn't have a musical background and is currently training a new bassist who used to play viola. He removed me from the band for suggesting he work on his vocals...because I don't have a musical background and he does and I don't know what I'm talking about. Also, it was HIS band and he wanted to be the lead singer and I was ruining his dream. However, it was not just me but many other people who listened to our demo that said he needed work or replacing. I was just repeating that info.

I thought that anyone could learn how to play a musical instrument provided they had a good instructor and the will to play. Not everyone will be a great musician, but anyone can learn.

A year ago I didn't know anything about music, never played anything before. Now I can read music on the bass and treble staff, read and play tab, name all the notes on the bass fretboard. I know all the major, minor and blues scales on the bass starting on any note. I can also play other scales including Jazz minor, Melodic, Hungarian Minor, Chromatic, Whole tone, Major Pentatonic, Minor Pentatonic, Diminished, etc plus all the modes including Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian etc. I know how to work out the Major and Minor scales by their Roman Numerals--but not quickly. I can play most songs that don't include slapping or plucking because I haven't figured that out yet. I usually memorize the entire song and can play it without music after only a few times through. I can play and sing at the same time. I have an innate sense of rhythm and am hardly ever off tempo--probably due to the years of dance training. I can play with a metronome, turn the metronome off mid-song, and then turn it back on and still be on beat...isn't that pretty good? Or can everyone do that?

I thought that was pretty good for a year...but I don't really know because like I said, I don't have a musical background so maybe that is NOT good.

Also, we tried many times to "jam" as a band and I just couldn't do it. I would ask this guy to tell me what the keynote was...or what chords he was using or what scale and he wouldn't tell me. He just said "you have to learn how to figure it out." Or he'd say "look at my fingers" but I'd just get confused. He said this was because I didn't have a musical background--but at that time I did know my scales. Is this how you're supposed to learn how to jam? Just figure it out?

Thanks for your insight!

all that in a year?
i'm impressed!

I played Bari Sax in middle/high school for 7yrs and didn't learn all that! pity...

its also a pity that basses dont sound like bari's... now THAT would be an amazing tone!

[BobWestbrook]

One doesn't have to know how to "jam" to be a great bass-player, at least not as your ex-teacher defines the word. Even jazz players who are largely improvising are working from pre-determined chord progressions. It's certainly reasonable to ask what chords are being played!

You've progressed greatly in a short time. Don't be discouraged by the oversized egos of others. Just enjoy the music.

[kid_squanto]

[quote=disenchant]Also, we tried many times to "jam" as a band and I just couldn't do it. I would ask this guy to tell me what the keynote was...or what chords he was using or what scale and he wouldn't tell me. He just said "you have to learn how to figure it out." Or he'd say "look at my fingers" but I'd just get confused. He said this was because I didn't have a musical background--but at that time I did know my scales. Is this how you're supposed to learn how to jam? Just figure it out?QUOTE]

Okay, first the guy sounds like an idiot...second, i find that i can only jam with certain types of people.

example: my band that actually writes songs and plays gigs and gets money for doing said things--doesn't really jam very well. but, but when I jam with a couple of other guys that usually don't play together and just do it for fun - we can play for hours nonstop.

I think that one of the key things of being able to jam is being able to read off what other people do, and learning from waht they do. also - having a drummer that thinks like a guitar player helps - Think of it as a musical conversation.

[sedan_dad]

Sounds like a real "Richard" Head to me.
Tell 'em to shove off.

[chasfr]

As I read the situation, your "instructor/bandmate" is being abusive. You don't have to put up with it. It's not unreasonable to ask what key a bandmate's playing in, and an instructor whose teaching method mostly consists of "figure it out" isn't doing his job.

Find people who appreciate you and want to help you improve, and work with them. Don't put up with this kind of crap.

Good luck!
Chas

[woodsgirl]

You are getting more musical backround than most people have, already! This "teacher" is probably a frustrated second-rate musician himself! If you learned all that in one year, you could be threatening your teacher>!

Most jams situations are polite enough that someone will say, "12 bar blues, 1-4-5, in G " or something to that effect, so that you can follow along without delay. Not that you can't figure out the key, but why should you have to? Most real musicians will tell you. Any teacher worth his salt will mentor you in and out of class or lesson situations. get an new teacher!

[Steve]

Originally Posted by disenchant

I recently had my bass teacher/band mate tell me that I was hard to train as a bassist because I didn't have a musical background.

Hmm, I always thought the entire purpose of a teacher was to provide you with a musical background.

[labgnat]

yeah sounds like the guy isn't much of a teacher. everyone has to get their musical experience somewhere. get another teacher if you can, and the best all around book that i've seen is bass guitar for dummies, it touches so many areas. i've tons of bass books learned by far the most from this book