Need Help Fighting LPS (Lifting Pinky Syndrome)

[BassDaddy77]

Does anyone else suffer from the following, and if so are there any suggestions on how to eliminate the "problem"?

I've been trying to force myself into consciously avoiding the development of bad technique. When playing in the traditional one-finger-per-fret position, my pinky (fretting hand) lifts every time I'm fretting with any of my first 3 fingers. It usually happens most often when I'm playing within the first 5 or so frets. I have extremely small hands, and it takes me every bit of stretch to get a 4 fret spread down low on the fingerboard. I've become frustrated a bit at this problem because when my pinky lifts as significantly as it does, it causes a percussive, glaring burst of sound when I need to fret with it, due to the "drop" effect it has on the string. I've worked at trying to keep it tucked in with my ring finger to keep it closer to the board, but I still have issues.

I don't want to throw in the towel just yet on "one-finger-per-fret," as I feel it's the best way to go most of the time. I enjoy playing in the "pentatonic position" when possible, but it obviously doesn't always apply to every situation. I've been playing for about 5 or 6 months now, and I really want to stop any bad technique issues before it becomes too hard to correct them. Any advice or tips would be welcome.

[BassDaddy77]

I forgot to mention that I've been reading through this thread:
Left hand "piling" up

but that seems to be a bit different problem?

[JimmyM]

really hard to tell without seeing you play. but try to concentrate on keeping your thumb behind the neck and your fingers curved.

[BassDaddy77]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

really hard to tell without seeing you play. but try to concentrate on keeping your thumb behind the neck and your fingers curved.

Thanks, that a good point. I often find my thumb trying to turn sideways running parallel to the neck as I try to get the full 4 fret spread. The thumb has been a constant battle for me as well.

[Ric5]

Bass players with big hands tend to not use the little finger of the left hand very much. Bass players with small hands tend to not use the ring finger on the left hand very much.

It is more to do with size, proportion and mechanics than a flaw in your style.

[Ric5]

My bad habit is I use my thumb to fret strings like Geddy does.

[tobie]

Originally Posted by BassDaddy77

I don't want to throw in the towel just yet on "one-finger-per-fret," as I feel it's the best way to go most of the time.

No reason to abandon one finger per fret just because the pinky does not behave. Even if you never fix it, you can stil use one finger per fret!

I've had this problem at first but it seems to have fixed itself over time (took about a year). I simply kept on forcing it back into position every time it did its own thing. At some stage I've spent time playing slowly, mainly focussing on the pinky. Just stay aware of it and keep on forcing it back. Eventually it will get the message!

[Waterpilot]

Originally Posted by tobie

I've had this problem at first but it seems to have fixed itself over time (took about a year). I simply kept on forcing it back into position every time it did its own thing. At some stage I've spent time playing slowly, mainly focussing on the pinky. Just stay aware of it and keep on forcing it back. Eventually it will get the message!

+1

I had the same problem as well. Oddly enough, it's been just over a year since I started playing and my pinky is much better.

[Fergie Fulton]

In lifting off the pinky there are two ways to do it,
1/ lift it off using the large knuckle on the back of the hand.
2/ use all the finger joints and curl it off.

Since the best technique is to curl it off that is the one to develop. Your fretting hand fingers should have a natural curl to them because in fretting the technique is in lifting off not putting on. Our hands naturally have that curl and when you put then on a bass, they are in position already so what we have to do is get them out the way, or lift off. Time will sort this out it is something that develops, ask many players and they will not be able to tell you if this was ever a problem or if the even done it let alone when the stopped doing it. Just now it is your focus and yours only.

With your pinky rather than lift off, curl it back. You will find that this action will lift off the pinky better and more controlled than just lifting from that big knuckle on the back of the hand ( that is the first one from the wrist).

Now the ring finger is part of this because the pinky and the ring finger share shame function in certain muscle groups and nerve extension, so it is just not a pinky function its a function on that side of the hand ( the ulnar side ) which is the power side of the hands not the dexterous side, that is the thumb side ( the radial ).

Don't worry about the thumb, let it run with the neck that is not a problem, forcing it up right is, so don't force that issue it will not help your pinky. Why? because the thumb as said is on the radial side so has no real influence in the muscle grouping to what you want to develop. As the hand come closer to you and further up the neck the thumb will become more upright so don't worry about it, let the thumb do what it feels is natural, then tweek it if there are any problems.

Check out the link from Havic5 it is pretty much spot on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkSsapYYsA

and here is a link to your hands using neutral thumb position.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=475980040

[BassDaddy77]

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone. Fergie, that vid was excellent. Perhaps I've been too caught up in "proper" technique rather than focusing on smooth hand position transitioning and keeping my hand, wrist, and fingers relaxed. By the time an hour has passed, everything is so tensed up that I have to stop playing. I know the tension can't be good, but I just figured it was part of the whole "building your chops" process. It's also nice to know that I don't have to abandon one finger per fret after all. Looks like I need to develop a fresh approach to effective pratice methods, focusing on ergonomics and hand muscle training. Hearing some of you say that it took a year or so for your "pinky issues" to settle down makes me think that time and patience will aid in alleviating the lifting. I'm seeing things a bit differently now, thanks to all you great TBers. Thanks a million.

[MarkMcBass]

Originally Posted by BassDaddy77

Does anyone else suffer from the following, and if so are there any suggestions on how to eliminate the "problem"?

I've been trying to force myself into consciously avoiding the development of bad technique. When playing in the traditional one-finger-per-fret position, my pinky (fretting hand) lifts every time I'm fretting with any of my first 3 fingers. It usually happens most often when I'm playing within the first 5 or so frets. I have extremely small hands, and it takes me every bit of stretch to get a 4 fret spread down low on the fingerboard. I've become frustrated a bit at this problem because when my pinky lifts as significantly as it does, it causes a percussive, glaring burst of sound when I need to fret with it, due to the "drop" effect it has on the string. I've worked at trying to keep it tucked in with my ring finger to keep it closer to the board, but I still have issues.

I don't want to throw in the towel just yet on "one-finger-per-fret," as I feel it's the best way to go most of the time. I enjoy playing in the "pentatonic position" when possible, but it obviously doesn't always apply to every situation. I've been playing for about 5 or 6 months now, and I really want to stop any bad technique issues before it becomes too hard to correct them. Any advice or tips would be welcome.

do more exercises where you isolate your pinky a lot force it to go were you want til its independent make it a conscious controlling effort

[vin*tone]

Keep working at it - you've only been playing for a few months. Try doing the exercises up at the 12th fret, when that's easy move to the 10th, then to the 7th, 5th and then to the 1st position.

I was learning classical guitar for a while. The techniques are very similar and the exercises are very useful. There's one exercise where notes are played finger per fret chromatically upwards (eg: A, Bb, C, Db - you can do this at any position. For me 7th fret is most comfortable). As the fingers go on they stay on; so after the 4th note ALL fingers are fretting. To train your pinky, play C, Db, C, Db ... holding all other fingers down, lifting the pinky on and off. With this exercise your pinky will be muscle trained to be in the right position.

* The full exercise goes P, I, M, A, A, M, I, P, P, I, M, I, A, I, M, I (where the fingers are PIMA starting at the index) and remember to fret all fingers behind the played note.

Hope that makes some sense. A bit like trying to descibe a spiral staircase without using your hands.

[turbo chicken]

thanks for this thread... and the linked video ... i just practiced and don't have the usual aches that i do when i stop ...

i too thought it was just part of the "growing pains" of learning but seems i was soooo wrong

[BassDaddy77]

Thanks for all the useful suggestions everyone. I just finished up an hour of practice and there was hardly any tension build up in my hands/wrist. My old "work through the pain" idea was obviously ill-conceived. A few minor ergonomic adjustments has made a world of difference already. The exercises to "isolate the pinky" idea is also a great tip. Thanks again.

[longfinger]

while I agree it's worth working on the tips already offered, I also think that on a 34" scale instrument, the "1 finger per fret" ideal is not a sacred cow to be maintained at all costs in the first 4 positions. 1-2-4 fingerings in the first 4 positions using open strings whenever possible and position shifts when necessary, can sound great and feel great. Ie. F major scale in 1st position, IMHO 1-2-4 beats 1-2-3-unused4.

[BassDaddy77]

Originally Posted by longfinger

while I agree it's worth working on the tips already offered, I also think that on a 34" scale instrument, the "1 finger per fret" ideal is not a sacred cow to be maintained at all costs in the first 4 positions. 1-2-4 fingerings in the first 4 positions using open strings whenever possible and position shifts when necessary, can sound great and feel great. Ie. F major scale in 1st position, IMHO 1-2-4 beats 1-2-3-unused4.

Makes sense. Do you double up your ring and pinky finger on a single fret with that method, or do you simply not use the ring finger at all?

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by BassDaddy77

Makes sense. Do you double up your ring and pinky finger on a single fret with that method, or do you simply not use the ring finger at all?

I'll use the ring finger an pinky together as one finger. For me, this is mostly in positions 1 and 2.

[Kawai-chang]

Is this not the "Si(y)mandl" technique?

Ron Carter and Carol Kaye are big proponents of this.

Originally Posted by longfinger

I'll use the ring finger an pinky together as one finger. For me, this is mostly in positions 1 and 2.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by Kawai-chang

Is this not the "Si(y)mandl" technique?

Ron Carter and Carol Kaye are big proponents of this.

Yes. It's primarily from Franz Simandl's New Method for String Bass. ("New" as in first published in 1881) It's been revised a bit and is still being use after almost 130 years for some very good reasons. It does not have all the answers for the DB, but it's a great start. For electric fretless it's a great start too.

For the electric fretted bass, I find it most useful for the first two positions. It can be morphed a bit and used well for positions 3, 4, 5. Around position 5 and higher up the neck, I like the one finger per fret practice. There is overlap. So much depends on context and usage.

[tobie]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Around position 5 and higher up the neck, I like the one finger per fret practice.

It can actually work well on frets 1-4 too if one does not get into the mindset of 'keeping-your-hand/thumb-behind-the-neck-in-a-fixed-position whilst playing a chord/arpeggio's finger pattern'. It's amazing how fast you can move your fretting hand along the neck once you start practicing it, eliminating the need to over-stretch your pinky/index finger.