new - left hand technique question

[blist]

I wanted to post a question here for all the experienced bass players.

I picked up the bass last year and decided I wanted to learn it. I'm still studying music theory and progressing slowly but surely, however, I had a question on some of my left hand technique and how I hold the bass.

I am a network engineer and I'm on a computer keyboard like 12 hours a day or more so I'm very conscience about ergonomics of the wrist, etc etc...

When I play the bass I find that I have a real hard time using my pinky on my fretting hand, however, it doesn't have to do with strength, my pinky is short and when I try to reach the E string (standard tuning) the edge of the neck digs into the inside on my joint, which is very painful. My ring finger will reach the string no problem. Because of the above I have a hard time trying to use the one finger per fret method and even the 1-2-4 method.

In addition, I find that I want to hold the guitar in more of an upright position. The more vertical the neck the more my wrists seem to be in a natural position. Also, related to my previous statement, when I hold the guitar like that it does seem to help my pinky reach a little further up because of the angle of my fingers. Consequentially, it does cause my thumb to be almost completely vertical on the back of the neck instead of how books and whatnot show the thumb being perpendicular.

So I guess my question is...are either of the above really bad habits that I should try to break now before I get too far or are they ok? Are there any bass players that use 1-2-3 fingers instead of 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-4 or hold the electric bass more like an upright, maybe 10-20 degree angle? I'm assuming as I get better certain techniques could become problematic.

It just kind of seems that you would want to play/hold the bass the way that is most natural instead of holding it because that is what a teacher says, especially if it is causing some sort of pain...which for me seems to be almost like an upright bass...aside from my short pinky issue and wanting to finger 1-2-3 instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-3-4.

Any comments will be appreciated.

...guess I should mention I have a squier classic vibe jass bass and a fender kingman sce acoustic so the necks on both are pretty narrow.

[Gawd]

How high do you where the bass? If it's too low the bend of the wrist will limit the reach of the fingers, and also cause other problems.

I wouldn't recommend using 1-2-3, it will lead to some very awkward stretches. If the bass is in a good position and your hand is positioned right there shouldn't be a problem with 1-2-3-4. I'd recommend using 1-2-4 on the lower area of the fingerboard, and 1-2-3-4 a higher up. Some people can do 1-2-3-4 lower but it the size of your hands is important.

Check out Alain Caron for someone who has the bass in a nearly upright position.

[Cannabass]

may i ask what you mean by 1-2-4 as opposed to 1-2-3-4?

[blist]

gawd, what do you mean, how high do I where the bass?

cannabass, talking fingers, 1-2-4 index middle pinky, 1-2-3-4 index middle ring pinky (per fret), as gawd said, it seems a lot teaching is 1-2-4 towards the neck and switch to 1-2-3-4 (one finger per fret) towards the bridge

[Gawd]

Originally Posted by Cannabass

may i ask what you mean by 1-2-4 as opposed to 1-2-3-4?

1-2-4 is index middle and pinky. It's usually used in the first few positions on the bass where the frets are further apart. It's a standard on upright bass because the distance between the middle and the pinky is close to the distance between the index and middle so they can span three semi-tones accurately. For a lot of people 1-2-3-4 is fine but the extra stretch can cause problems with prolonged use. 1-2-3-4 is great for higher up the neck where all four fingers span for notes in a more natural, less strenuous way.

[Gawd]

Originally Posted by blist

gawd, what do you mean, how high do I where the bass?

cannabass, talking fingers, 1-2-4 index middle pinky, 1-2-3-4 index middle ring pinky (per fret), as gawd said, it seems a lot teaching is 1-2-4 towards the neck and switch to 1-2-3-4 (one finger per fret) towards the bridge

Sorry, I meant what length to where the strap at? Although for some reason I didn't consider that you may be sitting

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by blist

I wanted to post a question here for all the experienced bass players.

I picked up the bass last year and decided I wanted to learn it. I'm still studying music theory and progressing slowly but surely, however, I had a question on some of my left hand technique and how I hold the bass.

I am a network engineer and I'm on a computer keyboard like 12 hours a day or more so I'm very conscience about ergonomics of the wrist, etc etc...

When I play the bass I find that I have a real hard time using my pinky on my fretting hand, however, it doesn't have to do with strength, my pinky is short and when I try to reach the E string (standard tuning) the edge of the neck digs into the inside on my joint, which is very painful. My ring finger will reach the string no problem. Because of the above I have a hard time trying to use the one finger per fret method and even the 1-2-4 method.

In addition, I find that I want to hold the guitar in more of an upright position. The more vertical the neck the more my wrists seem to be in a natural position. Also, related to my previous statement, when I hold the guitar like that it does seem to help my pinky reach a little further up because of the angle of my fingers. Consequentially, it does cause my thumb to be almost completely vertical on the back of the neck instead of how books and whatnot show the thumb being perpendicular.

So I guess my question is...are either of the above really bad habits that I should try to break now before I get too far or are they ok? Are there any bass players that use 1-2-3 fingers instead of 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-4 or hold the electric bass more like an upright, maybe 10-20 degree angle? I'm assuming as I get better certain techniques could become problematic.

It just kind of seems that you would want to play/hold the bass the way that is most natural instead of holding it because that is what a teacher says, especially if it is causing some sort of pain...which for me seems to be almost like an upright bass...aside from my short pinky issue and wanting to finger 1-2-3 instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-3-4.

Any comments will be appreciated.

...guess I should mention I have a squier classic vibe jass bass and a fender kingman sce acoustic so the necks on both are pretty narrow.

I have similar constraints. Part of my left hand pinky was chopped off in an accident when I was a child, so it's about 1/4" shorter than it should be. So I have to be extra careful to keep my wrists straight when playing because I have to reach a bit further.

As for the actual technique you end up using, my motto is "whatever it takes" to mash the string down without injuring the hand and wrist. Nothing else goes - if it hurts or is uncomfortable it is _required_ (in my book) that you not use it. If your teacher is insistent, go get another teacher _right now_.

There's nothing sacred about the one-finger-per-fret technique; feel free to abandon it at will whereever you might need to. I.e. up near the nut it can cause you to have to really bend your wrist uncomfortably; if it does and causes pain, don't do it. I use 1-4 predominately in that position, but have never been able to make 1-2-4 or 1-3-4 work up there for the first 3 "frets" (I'm a fretless player). So when it's required, I hike the neck up as close as I can get it so the wrist isn't bent and use 1-2-3.

As for the position of the instrument, you've discovered the main problem of many Fender-style instruments: "neck dive". For some players it's not a problem (i.e. Billy Sheehan), but for others it is. I'm the same way and need a more vertical position of the neck, so I've had to go to more balanced basses that allow that. This video should be required viewing for all new bassists who are concerned about neck dive:

http://www.carvinchannel.com/play.php?vid=116

This is the great French bass master Bunny Brunel talking about this very problem (I use Carvin Bunnies exclusively now because of the balance and ergonomic issues as well as the tone).

In any case, you're quite right that if it's comfortable for you, that's the position and technique you need to use, regardless of what someone else's recommendations are.

LS

[blist]

Originally Posted by Gawd

Sorry, I meant what length to where the strap at? Although for some reason I didn't consider that you may be sitting

I have it pretty high, body of the bass sits over my stomach pretty much, when sitting I actually put it between my legs instead of off to the side or resting on my right leg.

[blist]

Originally Posted by unclejane

http://www.carvinchannel.com/play.php?vid=116

This is the great French bass master Bunny Brunel talking about this very problem (I use Carvin Bunnies exclusively now because of the balance and ergonomic issues as well as the tone).
LS

Wow, nice video, holding the bass like that is what feels comfortable to me, notice how when he is sitting it is between is legs, that's what I do as well...seems to go hand in hand if you like the bass more vertical. I notice his thumb on the back of the neck is more vertical too so apparently there is nothing wrong with that.

Too bad I can't afford a nice bass like that yet.

[Rudreax]

Could you possibly post pictures of your hand in this position?

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by blist

Wow, nice video, holding the bass like that is what feels comfortable to me, notice how when he is sitting it is between is legs, that's what I do as well...seems to go hand in hand if you like the bass more vertical. I notice his thumb on the back of the neck is more vertical too so apparently there is nothing wrong with that.

Too bad I can't afford a nice bass like that yet.

Well that's the beauty of the Carvin - if you order it completely pain-jane it comes out to about $1000, but you get a bass equivalent in quality and workmanship that you can't get elsewhere for under twice that (and frequently you have to pay even more than that).

I actually can't do that particular seated position, it still puts the lower part of the neck too far away forcing me to crank my wrist around. I do the typical thing with it on my right leg in the lower cutaway.

As for the thumb, one technique you hear advocated a lot is positioning it to the outside of the index finger (i..e how you hand naturally forms itself when relaxed palm-up) with the tip of thumb pointing to the headstock. This is the technique I've gone to.

But not everyone uses that, some players position it under the index finger or even between the index and ring. Carol Kaye advocates a "pivoting" method for shifting where the thumb stays in one place but the hand shifts above it. I can't use that method, however, because it forces my wrist to crease in an unnatural way when shifting.

But that's a method many use and you might have a go with it and see how it works for you.

LS