No Natural rhythm

Bassman7PM · #1 02-26-2007, 11:43 AM

A tale of 2 guitar students. I have been an active musician for over 30 years and have played just about every style of music I can think of as a lead/rhythm guitarist and Bassist. I acquired a couple of students whom I've been instructing for maybe 2 years now, one I teach bass, the other lead guitar. The bassist has an amazing ear, voice and sense of timing on both bass and recently lead guitar. I can show him something and he immediately picks it up and runs with it. The other student (guitarist)...well, how can I say this without being insulting...has NO sense of rhythm or timing or groove or feel, BUT has the greatest passion and dedication to practicing of any student I've ever had, in fact, if I practiced as much as he does I'd be the next Victor Wooten. We've tried the metronome which I continue to press, but he hates it...I wonder why. Also, I can give him a basic I-IV-V progression and he gets lost every now and then. I currently have him studying Major and Minor Scales, but when it comes time to playing free form it comes out stiff, however sometimes he does show some promise. Any ideas on next steps to try with him? Frustrated teacher needs help.

Kronos · #2 02-26-2007, 11:46 AM

See if he can play along to his favorite songs. Maybe the metronome sounds boring to him, and he just wants to be like his favorite rock stars. If he can do that, show him that the metronome is like a drum beat. If he wants to write, he's going to need to know how to follow the drums.

agreatheight · #3 02-26-2007, 11:52 AM

Get him counting. Along with everything at lesson, and everything he listens to. And especially out loud as he plays. I had a difficult student a couple of years ago and we struggled getting her timing decent. We spent a lot of working with the metronome and me behind the drumkit working drills. It took about 5 months of solid lessons before she could get through a fairly simple song front to back. Most of my students could do it after 2. Counting out loud is really what pushed her forward.

Good luck!

Bassman7PM · #4 02-26-2007, 11:57 AM

Great ideas that i've tried already. I'm pushing him to tap out the beats with his foot, basic 4/4 but even then it looks like he struggling to keep it straight. I even have some Drum programs on my computer that I've burned on CD for him to practice with in an attempt to replace the dry metronome feel...unfortunately, same results.

Bassman7PM · #5 02-26-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agreatheight

Get him counting. Along with everything at lesson, and everything he listens to. And especially out loud as he plays. I had a difficult student a couple of years ago and we struggled getting her timing decent. We spent a lot of working with the metronome and me behind the drumkit working drills. It took about 5 months of solid lessons before she could get through a fairly simple song front to back. Most of my students could do it after 2. Counting out loud is really what pushed her forward.

Good luck!

By "everything", do you mean "Everything"? That just might help.

geoffkhan · #6 02-26-2007, 12:11 PM

In my opinion, counting is sorta disembodied from time feel. But if it works, hey.

So rather than using a metronome, use a drum machine or drum tracks. Also have him experiment and find where he 'feels' the groove.

Here's something I did a while, and it seemed to help. Turn on the metronome, and record yourself clapping with it. You'll really be able to hear when you hit it right on or not.

More than anything, put an emphasis on the importance of groove and good rhythm.

trasser · #7 02-26-2007, 12:15 PM

Maybe it is time for him to start playing in a band? If he doesn't do that already. You could try to encourage him to gather a few friends and start playing (and by this I mean ENCOURAGE - make him want it, and try to give him some selfconfidence). This is learning the hard way - if you have no ryth, you ain't never gonna be in no band.
I know its not the best proposition, but since you've tried everything else...
And okay, he doesn't like the metronome, but he likes to practice, which means that what you say give some kind of meaning to him - make him download a trial version of earmaster pro (www.earmaster.com) and tell him to do some of the rythm excersises just for 10 minutes every or every other day.

Bassman7PM · #8 02-26-2007, 12:37 PM

Awesome ideas. I actually have himplaying in a live band situation at church. Yesterday, he did rather well and I'm always the first to both compliment and encourage him. I'll also check out the Earmaster and see if that helps. On a side note, the bassist I mentioned has an uncle who passed away last year leaving him a vintage 62" Fender Strat which I did some extensive rework to get it back in good playing condition and OMG it's plays like butter.

dlb1001 · #9 02-26-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassman7PM

Great ideas that i've tried already. I'm pushing him to tap out the beats with his foot, basic 4/4 but even then it looks like he struggling to keep it straight. I even have some Drum programs on my computer that I've burned on CD for him to practice with in an attempt to replace the dry metronome feel...unfortunately, same results.

Timing is one of the things that I have trouble with so my teacher got me to use metronome, which isn't much fun. Also, he had me listen to the radio and try to find the 4/4 beat, which has helped a lot. Another approach was to have me play standing, rather than sitting. Both of us found that when I stand, I can lock into the beat much better when I move with the beat. Finally, he grabbed a snare drum and he started tapping out the 2 and 4 beats then made me play quater notes. Then, he turned it around and made me play the snare on the 2 and 4 beats while he played his bass.

MichaelScott · #10 02-26-2007, 03:20 PM

Metronome + earphones + 15 minutes a day.

Tell him he can do it walking to school, driving, the dishes etc...

This worked really well for one of my students.

theshadow2001 · #11 02-26-2007, 03:36 PM

Just hook electrodes to him and get him play quarter notes. Everytime he loses a beat administer an electric shock

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlb1001

Timing is one of the things that I have trouble with so my teacher got me to use metronome, which isn't much fun. Also, he had me listen to the radio and try to find the 4/4 beat, which has helped a lot. Another approach was to have me play standing, rather than sitting. Both of us found that when I stand, I can lock into the beat much better when I move with the beat. Finally, he grabbed a snare drum and he started tapping out the 2 and 4 beats then made me play quater notes. Then, he turned it around and made me play the snare on the 2 and 4 beats while he played his bass.

In all seriousness I like this idea. It might be a novel way to get him to practice the timing. Maybe you could count out loud and get him to play along counting out loud as well.

BetterBottomEnd · #12 02-26-2007, 03:58 PM

Have him play along with a recording with a click track. Record a bass line and some rhythm guitar then add a click track or play a snare or something so that the beat jumps out at him. Give him the recording to take home so that he can improv over it multiple times and feel what different kinds of things he can do over the same progression.

Kevbroce · #13 02-26-2007, 04:26 PM

Check out Band-in-a-Box. My instructor showed it to me. It allows you, among other things, to type in a chord progression, song, whatever and have a "band" play it. I just mute the bass and it makes practicing soooo much better. The drum tracks are much more fun to play to than a metronome, and the piano and guitar help you hear the chords and where the progression is leading to. I think that would reallt help your student's rhythm, timing, groove, and feel. Work on a song that your student likes and knows, scales don't promote much feel or grove IMO.

Try the Band-in-a-Box demo out. I haven't used it much yet but so far it's been great!

http://www.pgmusic.com/

Bassman7PM · #14 02-26-2007, 08:05 PM

I've resorted to charging him a Dollar for every mistake......Just kidding.....Hummm, might work......Nah.

lowphatbass · #15 02-27-2007, 12:28 AM

Be honest with him and show him what his areas of opportunity are. The bottom line is this student is not going to get any better until he understands that 90% of his practice time should be with a metronome. He should NOT be encouraged to practice ANY exercises that he cannot play "in time" with a metronome. Finally, being able to hear what we sound like recorded can be informative, if not humbling to say the least! Try to find a way to record your student. Make sure he is jamming-out his strongest groove. Play it back while you both try to keep a 1/4note pulse.
Good Luck!
(p.s. If this student is young let his parents know before you break it down for him)

Bassman7PM · #16 02-27-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowphatbass

Be honest with him and show him what his areas of opportunity are. The bottom line is this student is not going to get any better until he understands that 90% of his practice time should be with a metronome. He should NOT be encouraged to practice ANY exercises that he cannot play "in time" with a metronome. Finally, being able to hear what we sound like recorded can be informative, if not humbling to say the least! Try to find a way to record your student. Make sure he is jamming-out his strongest groove. Play it back while you both try to keep a 1/4note pulse.
Good Luck!
(p.s. If this student is young let his parents know before you break it down for him)

Thanks for the suggestion. During his next lesson I'll hook him up to my 4 track with a nice drum groove and bass line and have him go for it for about 5 mins each to a different beats/tempos and we can break it down together. One thing for sure is the tape doesn't lie.

BassChuck · #17 02-27-2007, 09:43 AM

Sounds like a joke, but I'm not kidding... check his heart rate to see if that is steady, then have him walk for you... I'll be thats steady too. So, there is natural rhythm.

If he can't play 4 quarter notes in a row in steady tempo then he's either 1.) Hearing something different 2.) overwhelmed by the technical aspects of the instrument (even though that might seems simple to anyone else). 3.) just not paying attention.

Play 'right and wrong' for him and see if he hears it.
Have him tap his foot while you play... while the metronome plays, while a CD plays.

Milk eWay · #18 02-27-2007, 10:25 PM

I know he hates the "nome" but have him try this...

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/rhy...ping-the-beat/

I didn’t like this while I when I was starting out, but I sure loved the results!

(ps, I hope you can talk him into doing this. I guarantee it will work, if he puts the time into it.)

Bassist4Life · #19 02-27-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Sounds like a joke, but I'm not kidding... check his heart rate to see if that is steady, then have him walk for you... I'll be thats steady too. So, there is natural rhythm.

If he can't play 4 quarter notes in a row in steady tempo then he's either 1.) Hearing something different 2.) overwhelmed by the technical aspects of the instrument (even though that might seems simple to anyone else). 3.) just not paying attention.

Play 'right and wrong' for him and see if he hears it.
Have him tap his foot while you play... while the metronome plays, while a CD plays.

+1

Sometimes you need to point out what the beat actually is. Sounds crazy, but it's true.

I've had students try to tap their foot to music with a strong beat, and they weren't able to do it. I had to actually explain where the beat was in the music. We tapped our toe on beat 1 and 3, and we clapped on beats 2 and 4. It didn't happen in one lesson, but it helped.

Joe

arcellus · #20 02-28-2007, 01:15 AM

One of my students with the same problem had an epiphany a while back - we were working on the Rufus song "Tell Me Something Good" (his choice, not mine) which starts with the bass playing off beats. So I set the metronome to the tempo of the song and counted him off, telling him to find the space exactly between the beats and play there. Suddenly he was locked right in - I think the process of listening to the tempo the metronome was setting up and finding his own way to fit in was the key. Maybe this will help with your guy?

Have him try playing scales, or any pattern really, with a metronome clicking half notes on two and four. It might lead to a breakthrough!