Not your typical 2 vs 3 finger thread

[makanudo]

Im not gonna ask which one is better or tell you why one is better so here we go..

Recently i've been fooling around with a metronome, first with 2 fingers, and then getting the hang out of the 3 finger technique.
I play metal, Thrash mostly so i do need some speed.

However i am not quite sure if it would be better to work on my 2 finger technique until i reach my top speed, or work hard on the 3 finger technique until acquiring very good accuracy and speed.

What are your thoughts and what advice would you give me?

[Fergie Fulton]

Speed issues are not really going to be improved at the top end with "how many fingers" are used. One. two, three, four or five fingers does not equate to more speed, that is just more dexterity in one hand.
Each of the plucking fingers used is still the same, it is not any faster at working in the hand technique it is just used better in following on. The fact that true movement in speed for a bass player is a two handed endeavour, the maximizing and coordination of BOTH hands.

The variables on this is movement across strings and size of intervals (musical intervals) being used.
For example playing triplets on say a G on the E string and rapid following a single C on the G string in 16ths or 32nd notes is a different coordination skill than doing the same on a single string.
Playing triplets on say a G on the E string and rapid following a single G# next to it in 16ths or 32nd will be no harder or easier depending how many fingers are used. It can be done using a pick.

The great advantage to using multiple finger techniques is dexterity of playing which can create the hearing effect of speed. Hammer ons, pull offs trills, finger tapping etc all sound fast, but the reality is they are not played fast, they are played with careful precise coordination......the melding of the two hands to play as one.
When hear or read of players struggling to develop finger independence or speed and the problems the have, it is because the fingers need to work together not independently and the practice needs to be precise and slow not fast.

Like the moving parts in engines they need to be in time, both hands and all the fingers used need to be firing together, not independently.
With that in mind here in the UK we have a school children's race called the three legged race, in which two children are tied together at the ankle and run a short race. Tying them together does not make them run twice as fast, if each child can run at 10MPH the linking them together does not mean the run at 20MPH. In fact the opposite will occur, they will run slower because the have not learned to work together, to coordinate their two actions as one.
What happens is the trip over each other in an attempt to run faster. This is similar to playing, you trip over your fingers, its not that your fingers are faster at playing, they are just not fast enough to coordinate that movement in to speed. The fingers are the same it is how the hands coordinated together to strike the string/fret the string and move on that creates speed. If this timing is wrong then the fingers trip over each other

Your technique of playing and staying out of your own way and using the both hands together is how to become a better player, and one of the side effects of this coordination is speed.

Yes there are things we can do to help this process and things we can do to hinder it, again its about understanding what is going on in your technique not anothers.
In a healthy pair of hands they can be developed to play fast on the bass and away from the bass, but it is personal to that person of what works good and what works bad. We all use our hands for many different things, so for some ten minutes practice is good and others not good, some may need longer and more varied practice. This is because of what we use our hands for in day to day life, playing bass is not an option for some but they will attempt it on their own, risking there hands health in the process. In the end careful practice of the techniques you use will provide the development of technique regardless of how many fingers are used.

[makanudo]

So basically you are saying that with a lot of practice 2 can be as fast as 3?

[tom once dead]

2 can be as fast as three if you work on it a lot. But if you work on 3 a lot it will get faster.

I normally use 3, I found that when using 3 all the time I lost my 2 finger speed but I just had to practice 2 more and got it back again.

[Matthijs]

+1 on Fergie, It doesn't really matter if you first train 2 and later train 3 fingers, it's always a matter of training 10 fingers at once.

I think what suits you best also might have to do with the shape of your hands. I myself naturally started using 3 fingers, because my middle finger is just a bit longer than average. It's lenght sometime's get's in the way with a two fingered technique. Relative finger sizes can really vary a lot between individuals.
Would be interesting to see what handshapes some of the great players have and if there's a relationship with their playing style. Could also be a good tutoring aide: "you've clearly got a Larry Graham thumb: forget about fingerstyle, your in the slap course "

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by makanudo

So basically you are saying that with a lot of practice 2 can be as fast as 3?

If each finger developed in the technique has a specific job then yes, if each finger is just alternating the job then no.

In any task it is the distribution to the task involved ( the technique) that is important. It is the continues practice of the working unit that brings the result. As has be stated working working with three does not help when going back to two till it is practised and for the use of a better term.. recalibrated.

If i give four people the job of coping out a 100 line essay if they all start at the same time in the same place they all do the same thing at the same speed it is no faster.
But if i give each one 25 lines each and have them do a different task of one starts at line one, the next at line 25 the next at line 50 and the next at line 75, if they start at the same time the job is done faster. Or i slow them all down then the job is done easier in the same time as it takes one.
There are other variations to this if you think about them such as just have two or three but the premise is the same, its about working together to achieve a result.

In this task it is the coordination of each knowing what is involved and working with the other to achieve the end result of coping the 100 lines.
If say i have to check what they have done and then correct any mistakes or put in context what they have done then no the job is still being done by one person and may take longer to complete.

In the end your fingers are controlled by your brain, so regardless of how many fingers you use it is one central thing that is controlling them, one central thing coordinating and organizing the action of however many fingers used. Get that right and the rest falls into place.
Many players fail to recognise that speed is a side effect of better organisation of the hands/fingers used, technique in other words.
Add to this instrument, set up, amp settings etc, and again it comes down to having all things working together to produce the desired result.

[Fergie Fulton]

LOL as an add on to this i have a friend with me who has pointed out funny thing. I am Scottish, and as such speak fast, i live in England and very few people understand what i say if i do not slow down, it just sounds like garbbled nonsense. But back home where i come from because this is how we speak and we are all used to hearing this speed it is not a problem, because we are all in sync, we are all used to this speed because it is how we grew up and developed the "ear" to hear it. My friend tells me he can now understand me, but when in the company of other Scots i instinctively speed up when talking to them and again he cannot understand what is being said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7Vo...eature=related

[theunknowndude]

I agree with the it depends on if your using 3 fingers to do the same job or 3 fingers to do it quicker,...

I've never had success with 3 as my third finger is too short and changing my angle stuffs me up... that and playing at fast speeds I find that my 3rd finger cannot pluck as fast as using 2 quickly so mmm

that said I do use it for triplets sometimes but I stick with 2 as I've played that way for 2 years and have good speed with it... only problem is I now need to work on getting my left hand accurate at playing fast

[makanudo]

I dont want you guys to think that i am only interested in speed, im just asking because sometimes i write something on guitar that is too fast for me on the bass with just 2 fingers, so thats why i think learning to play with 3 fingers is going to help me later on..

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by makanudo

I dont want you guys to think that i am only interested in speed, im just asking because sometimes i write something on guitar that is too fast for me on the bass with just 2 fingers, so thats why i think learning to play with 3 fingers is going to help me later on..

Not at all, like i said some players confuse speed with fluency or dexterity. I only make the points i do to show that there are many ways to approach playing. Follow the link for some ideas.


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=519267158

[Craig630]

I'm a 2 finger guy, use three for some triplets, but recently I've found my third finger itchin to play where I have only used 2 in the past. I'm trying to work it in there on songs I already know, it's like trying to learn the songs all over again.

I'm trying to embrace it, but it's slow going.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Craig630

I'm a 2 finger guy, use three for some triplets, but recently I've found my third finger itchin to play where I have only used 2 in the past. I'm trying to work it in there on songs I already know, it's like trying to learn the songs all over again.

I'm trying to embrace it, but it's slow going.

It is a slow process to accustom the brain to react using different finger patterns but it will, the slower you do it the better it is learned. When you practise be deliberate, when you play be carefree.
In practice make sure you alternate or use the best way to use the fingers, work on it and give the brain time to realise what is going on.
In playing situations forget it all and just play, never correct or think about correct fingerings, that is for practise only. The idea is to build an action as a reaction to what you want to play, its not about building a repetitive following or alternating action, that happens over time naturally and then can be refined.

Follow the link for some video info on the plucking hand position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeodP4P0ivM

[Dellers]

My fingers are not the same length, so playing with 3 just doesn't work well. I don't really need it anyway, I'm not playing that fast. If a bassline is terribly fast it does sound like crap anyway, no matter who's playing IMO. Playing bass faster than a certain speed (pretty fast though) just can't sound good, because of how the instrument works.

[makanudo]

I know, sometimes when a guitar riff is like super fast i'll just play half speed to keep the bottom end

[Richard Lindsey]

IMO and IME, for scalar-type things (note the qualification), two fingers are as fast as three, and conceivably faster, since (a) the ring finger is probably your weakest finger and (b) string crossing is simplified with two fingers. The fastest guitarists at playing scalar stuff are generally flamenco players, and they use index-middle two-finger alteration. There's a reason for that.

By "scalar-type" I don't really mean scales per se, I mean sequences of notes that mostly proceed by relatively short steps, like minor or major seconds (for instance in a "walkdown" or "walkup"). As opposed to sequences that proceed by larger steps (like octaves).

For playing arpeggios and wider intervals, the 3rd finger can be a real benefit. I use mine a lot. But don't get sucked into the idea that 3 is necessarily faster than 2 across the board for everything.

[CMallett]

Interesting points made, and I know where you're coming from cuz about a year ago I decided to go from a competent two finger technique to three.
With the three legged race metaphor there are some good points but the fact remains that two people tied together would be controlled by two brains and two sets of consciouses, fighting against each other. With one person controlling three fingers, this removes that initial distraction from the task...

Now, if you imagine playing four notes per second on one string using two fingers, after the first finger (let's say the index or pointer finger) strikes through the string, I has the time it takes the middle finger to strike the string (in this case 1/4 a second) to return to is starting point to play the next note.
However, if using three fingers, after the first finger strikes, it has the time taken by the next two fingers (1/2 a second) to get back to its starting point to play again. Now, four notes per second isn't a lot, but at eight per sec, that extra time comes in handy!

As with any new technique, it does take a while to build up, and it does take a lot pf patience as it feels like you're starting from scratch, but I know some great exercises To build up strength and stamina for you ring finger so drop me a message if you want some!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by CMallett

Interesting points made, and I know where you're coming from cuz about a year ago I decided to go from a competent two finger technique to three.
With the three legged race metaphor there are some good points but the fact remains that two people tied together would be controlled by two brains and two sets of consciouses, fighting against each other. With one person controlling three fingers, this removes that initial distraction from the task...

That was the point of the three legged race analogy was to show a left side, a right side and a shared function. The left and right sides are separate in there own right and work together in the shared function.

The hand has two sides, a dexterous radial side ( thumb, fore and middle finger) and a powerful ulnar side (ring and little finger) each with separate neural pathways that allow separate function. Add to this that the left side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain and the right side by the left side of the brain ( the cerebrum) then we have a clever but complicated develop set of functions to match up...if we can.

So in moving a finger in a controlled manner there has to be a lot of things in place for us to function. If i cut the ulnar nerve then the ring and little finger will never move but the rest of the hand will have function by virtue of the radial nerve being intact. It is by design that the dexterous function is on the inside. Lift your arms to protect yourself and the power side takes the impact, the dexterous side, the side that gives our hand its unique status is protected. It is a survival mechanism we have developed over million of years that functions and controls are on opposite sides of our body but the tie in, the central control is the brain.

So in developing both sides we need to identify that both sides are fully functional and healthy, that is not easy because it can show problems in many different ways not near the source of the problem, these are called referred symptoms. So someone having a problem in their shoulder may feel the effect in their hand, their finger tips to be exact, so looking at the hand is not going to solve anything, the problem needs to be sorted in the shoulder.

What i am getting at is it is not always just work fingers or exercise the hand for all, there may be a good physical reason why some have problems that others don't, so always listen to your body and remember pain is there for a reason so don't tolerate it stop what your doing. We were never designed to play bass guitar but it is something we can do as a trade off in skills, that trade off has disadvantages. The biggest injuries to hands are over-use and miss-use....

[Ric5]

For metal and speed try a pick.

[CMallett]

Wow! I have meant to read up on the mechanics of the hand, I had no idea that that was the case, thanks! This does tie into another thought I have when it comes to approaching new techniques on bass, which is that 90% of the effort you use should be spent BELIEVING that you're going to be successful. Whenever our favourite bassists decide to go from one technique to another they pick them up with great ease, and my theory is they know their ability and just expect to be able to do it. In bio-psychology there is a function known as ideo-motor movement; this is responsible for the movement of a glass on a Ouija board, as the brain expects movement and after a while the body pushes the glass without meaning to. My guess is that if you can. Push a glass. A tiny amount to not visibly realise, then this allows a slightly greater control of movement than just blindly attempting a new technique. Just think, if you can play with two, why can't you play with three?
As far as over exerting yourself goes, I do completely agree that if it hurts, stop immediately as you could be allowing any number of injuries to happen, and my exercises start very slow, but just use common sense to separate the control between the middle nd ring fingers, because due to sharing a tendon its near impossible to play the g string with your ring and the e stri.g with your middle at the same time, so I spent a while refining methods to overcome that and build up to complete proficiency with all three fingers.

Another thing id say is, by using three fingers you actually cut down the time tken to achieve great speed, which is always beneficial!

[CMallett]

Wow! I have meant to read up on the mechanics of the hand, I had no idea that that was the case, thanks! This does tie into another thought I have when it comes to approaching new techniques on bass, which is that 90% of the effort you use should be spent BELIEVING that you're going to be successful. Whenever our favourite bassists decide to go from one technique to another they pick them up with great ease, and my theory is they know their ability and just expect to be able to do it. In bio-psychology there is a function known as ideo-motor movement; this is responsible for the movement of a glass on a Ouija board, as the brain expects movement and after a while the body pushes the glass without meaning to. My guess is that if you can. Push a glass. A tiny amount to not visibly realise, then this allows a slightly greater control of movement than just blindly attempting a new technique. Just think, if you can play with two, why can't you play with three?
As far as over exerting yourself goes, I do completely agree that if it hurts, stop immediately as you could be allowing any number of injuries to happen, and my exercises start very slow, but just use common sense to separate the control between the middle nd ring fingers, because due to sharing a tendon its near impossible to play the g string with your ring and the e stri.g with your middle at the same time, so I spent a while refining methods to overcome that and build up to complete proficiency with all three fingers.

Another thing id say is, by using three fingers you actually cut down the time tken to achieve great speed, which is always beneficial!