Note definition at high tempos

paradigm_shift · #1 12-04-2009, 01:47 AM

Ok so this may be the wrong thread.. Its kind of a tone question... I figure tone is kind of a technique, though this could easily cross over into the realm of amps/bass/effects...

Basically I have joined an uber-tech, uber-twidly death metal/death-core/progresive type project. Im having trouble getting real definition of notes. I tend to go for a very mid boosted signal , play finger style. Clean (with natural overdrive when amp cranked)Currently playing a warwick through a mesa 400+ through an ampeg 810e. Its all getting a little muddy. We are playing songs around 240bpm... This is the first I've tried to do a project this intense, normally I'm doing much slower much heavier, so any pointers are VERY welcome. Do I need to be looking for something to give me more attack? a compresser? play with Eq more? A solidstate amp? Its not an issue of cutting through the mix. More trying to make things sound tighter.

Feel free to ask for me to clarify any points. I realise I may not have got what I'm trying to ask clear enough

anthowl · #2 12-04-2009, 01:49 AM

do you have your tweeter up?
are you running compression?
how are you tuned?

paradigm_shift · #3 12-04-2009, 01:58 AM

No compression.
No tweeter- Ampeg 810e cab doesnt have one.
Bass tuned BEADG Standard 5, Predominantly using the bea strings.Generally very busy lines.
.

bongomania · #4 12-04-2009, 02:02 AM

While I really don't usually jump to say a compressor is the solution to anything, the fact is that I have gotten fantastic results for improved crisp articulation by using a comp. The FEA Dual-Band, Maxon CP9Pro+, and Diamond BCP-1 are my favorite pedals for this; rack units by Ashly, Rane, and Symetrix are also killer for this application (see my reviews for specific model numbers).

paradigm_shift · #5 12-04-2009, 02:07 AM

I will look into those- from your wealth of experience do you know if any of the pedal models you listed are particularly fond/unfond of active basses?

bongomania · #6 12-04-2009, 02:30 AM

All three are fine either way; the Maxon has the most direct and easy adjustment to accommodate different bass output levels.

paradigm_shift · #7 12-04-2009, 02:39 AM

Thank you bongo. I dont suspect this will be the answer by and of itself, but I felt this might be a step in the right direction. Like most of talkbass I view your opinion of comps highly

Still very open to suggestion if any other ideas are out there for things I should try

KsPiNeSh · #8 12-04-2009, 04:49 AM

How are you EQd? Are you mid-scooped?

MarkTAW · #9 12-04-2009, 06:53 AM

You're playing at 240? You're probably really playing at 120 with a lot of 8th notes, but I could be wrong.

Where does the bass sit in relation to the rest of the band? If you drop out, how much of a difference does it make on the overall sound? It could be that the frequency ranges you're emphasizing are already covered by someone else. It could be that the rest of the band is pushing a lot of frequency range already, in which case your goal is to fill in the bottom (since nobody else can go quite as low as you - unless there are keys involved), and maybe get some fret clack over the top. Or to get them to re-arrange their sound to fit you better (good luck with that).

Their rehearsal space could also be small & just really bad on bass.

Beast · #10 12-04-2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

You're playing at 240? You're probably really playing at 120 with a lot of 8th notes, but I could be wrong.

.

Naw, it's not uncommon to be playing at 8th or 16th notes in 240 for this genre, so his problem is really reasonable.

nysbob · #11 12-04-2009, 07:31 AM

It's really difficult to get much articulation out of low notes played at high speeds - it's a physics thing.

I don't think compression is going to help much. Playing with fresh strings & a pick probably would. As much as I dislike compression drivers, you probably would benefit from a box that had one. I've never been a fan of fridge cabs either - they always sound kind of mushy to me.

I'd also check out what other guys that work that genre are using.

megadan · #12 12-04-2009, 07:45 AM

You should try out an SS amp designed for a faster sound sometime - ie, a GK. A 1001RB or 2001RB would probably be perfect for you. No loss of power compared to the 400+, very fast responce, natural overdrive sound.

peterpalmieri · #13 12-04-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradigm_shift

Ok so this may be the wrong thread.. Its kind of a tone question... I figure tone is kind of a technique, though this could easily cross over into the realm of amps/bass/effects...

Basically I have joined an uber-tech, uber-twidly death metal/death-core/progresive type project. Im having trouble getting real definition of notes. I tend to go for a very mid boosted signal , play finger style. Clean (with natural overdrive when amp cranked)Currently playing a warwick through a mesa 400+ through an ampeg 810e. Its all getting a little muddy. We are playing songs around 240bpm... This is the first I've tried to do a project this intense, normally I'm doing much slower much heavier, so any pointers are VERY welcome. Do I need to be looking for something to give me more attack? a compresser? play with Eq more? A solidstate amp? Its not an issue of cutting through the mix. More trying to make things sound tighter.

Feel free to ask for me to clarify any points. I realise I may not have got what I'm trying to ask clear enough

I don't mean this in a mean spirited way so I hope my thoughts are clear and friendly.

I wouldn't be looking at my gear to solve this problem but rather your technique, so I think your in the right place.

Make sure your right hand articulation is clear and consistent. Practice with a metronome and move your right hand closer the the bridge. Play the notes more stacatto (harder attack but cut them off) and use left hand muting to assist with this. Slightly releasing your finger from the fingerboard after the initial attack of the note but do not lose contact with the string or the fret.

You might down load and listen to Rocco Prestia with Tower of Power as he does as a very good job at what I'm explaining and "What is Hip" is a tune that is a good example of his technique. I understand that the styles of music are very very different but I believe this may help you. If you can learn that tune and mimic the tone he's getting it should help you significantly.

Chasarms · #14 12-04-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

. . . Practice with a metronome and move your right hand closer the the bridge. Play the notes more staccato (harder attack but cut them off) and use left hand muting to assist with this. Slightly releasing your finger from the fingerboard after the initial attack of the note but do not lose contact with the string or the fret. . . .

I would agree with this post. The closer you are to the bridge, the less slop in the strings. It just makes faster playing easier.

The only thing I would add is that you may want to work running the preamp gain hotter and playing with a lighter touch. Digging in does have it's signature sound, but, at least in my experience, it slows you down. If you work at it, you can stay out on the very tips of your fingers at still get a tight, well-pronounced attack to the note. IME, this makes clean, articulate faster lines more manageable.

bigblondeafro87 · #15 12-04-2009, 08:40 AM

Tell your guitars to turn down the bass knob. Give yourself a boost in the low mids (~250hz) and pick a narrow slot of the higher frequencies to boost (i.e. 1500-1550 hz).

MarkTAW · #16 12-04-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigblondeafro87

Tell your guitars to turn down the bass knob. Give yourself a boost in the low mids (~250hz) and pick a narrow slot of the higher frequencies to boost (i.e. 1500-1550 hz).

That's more or less what I'm thinking too.

peterpalmieri · #17 12-04-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

That's more or less what I'm thinking too.

REALLY

He never makes any mention of the guitarist or guitarists.

In fact he says "I tend to go for a very mid boosted signal" and "Its not an issue of cutting through the mix. More trying to make things sound tighter"

I am more or less totally lost a Mesa 400+ and an an ampeg 810 and everyone accept me thinks it's the gear..

Billnc · #18 12-04-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadan

You should try out an SS amp designed for a faster sound sometime - ie, a GK. A 1001RB or 2001RB would probably be perfect for you. No loss of power compared to the 400+, very fast responce, natural overdrive sound.

+1, I was an SVT lover then at a multi band event plugged into a GK, 16th notes were finally happening!

JimmyM · #19 12-04-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

REALLY

He never makes any mention of the guitarist or guitarists.

In fact he says "I tend to go for a very mid boosted signal" and "Its not an issue of cutting through the mix. More trying to make things sound tighter"

I am more or less totally lost a Mesa 400+ and an an ampeg 810 and everyone accept me thinks it's the gear..

I'm with you, Peter. Sort of. In situations like this, you really have to be honest with yourself and try to determine if it's not really your technique that needs a little freshening up. But since I've never heard the dude, it could be equipment. The newer 810's aren't particularly bright cabs like the older ones. And since 400+'s have a Fender tone stack (i.e. a big mid scoop with all controls set flat), it could also be contributing.

paradigm_shift · #20 12-05-2009, 01:37 AM

Ok so to try and put a different perspective on things my setup is as follows, warwick infinity 5, mids boosted( its naturally very mids voiced anyway) --> splitter box-- into both inputs of 400+ Parametric Eq both treble and bass at 0 and mids at 10 "ie set as flat" I have the push pull on the bass pulled and the graphic eq engaged on amp with a mids boost. The 810 is a newer model Jimmy- towards the end of the made in america era

I agree that technique has something to do with it, I'm definantly new to consistantly playing at such speeds- I can do it but I'm pushing myself the whole way you know, So there is definitly a technique aspect to it. I'm constantly working on refining my technique.

I'm totally down with trying different EQ options, Im just finding things a bit lost and muddying up, even when playing alone irrelevant of mix, The genres a new one for me, so trying/learning what I can where I can.I'm pretty happy with my tone and where it sits in the mix, its more how it sits that is the issue...

As far as band setup 2 guitars, drums ,vox- both guitars in drop B, Im on standard B.

I'm just sure I'm missing an aspect of the equation and its all adding up wrong.