One Finger, One Fret Troubles

[BadMonk]

Does anybody use the alternate 1, 2, and 4 finger technique? I picked up the bass almost two years ago at 49 and still haven't been able to do OFOF. I've tried stretching and playing slow to make the stretch but my hands eventually ache, the notes aren't solid, etc.

I'm 51 and haven't had to stretch my fingers for anything like music, sports, job, whatever. It seems easier to get tendons and muscles to cooperate when they're younger/less stiff. Second, the ring and middle fingers of my left hand barely spread at all, compared to my right.

To compensate, I've been using the 1,2,4 fingers. But, it seems nearly every teacher or instruction that I've seen works on OFOF...which gets really frustrating and I feel kinda awkward about playing anymore. I have/had a few basses and just sold one due to frustration.

Maybe I should try short scale basses.

[Geezerman]

Using shortscale would definitely help and it seems you like fender basses so maybe this would be ideal?


As long as 12, 4 works for you it should be fine. You could always find stretches to try to aid the problem though.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...tar?sku=511959

[Acepiloto]

I'm actually having the opposite problem. I've always done 1234, but my instructor is teaching me to just do 124.

[Figjam]

Im not sure why anyone would advise the 124 if you are doing fine with ofof

[BadMonk]

Originally Posted by Acepiloto

I'm actually having the opposite problem. I've always done 1234, but my instructor is teaching me to just do 124.

Wow! That's really confusing, isn't it? We should switch instructors maybe.

[jaebee]

honestly, if you are comfortable and solid playing 124 its fine.

very rarely are you going to hit 4 notes on a string in one position, so as long as you are comfortable moving around the fretboard its fine, especially if one has smaller hands

[Erick Lam]

Most players I see use 124 whenever they can and I do as well, even fairly up the neck (9-10th fret). 1234 is something to practice and something you "should" be able to do, but that's more theory than reality. Especially at 51, I doubt you're looking for a long profesionnal career.

Something you should *really*practice, and that's hardly ever mentionned here, is shifting positions. You'll go a LOT further with 124 and seamless shifts than 1234 technique and sloppy shifts.

[Matthew Bryson]

Please pardon my ignorance, but can you please explain what exactly it is that you are being asked to do that you aren't physically able to do?

I do understand OFOF to mean one finger one fret. Meaning, for example, that you'd play F, F#, G, Ab on frets 1 - 4 for the E string using index, middle, ring, then pinky.

When people say that they can't make the stretch, I picture them trying to hold down the 1 fret with the index and the 4 fret with the pinky at the same time. Is that the case? If so, is that what your instructor is asking you to do when working on the OFOF technique?

My understanding of "finger per fret" was that each finger plays a fret - but not at the same time.

So:
index plays fret one - then, while still holding fret 1 down, middle plays fret 2. Now while, still holding down fret 2 ring finger plays fret 3 (you can release fret 1 as you fret fret 3) next, while still holding down fret 3, pinky plays fret 4 (you can release fret 2 as you fret fret 3)

Edit - Just try to make it clear: In my version, you are never holding down more than two frets at a time - you don't hold down all four.

That is how I was taught. Is that what you do in OFOF - or are you trying to hold four fingers to four frets all at that same time?

I'm really not trying to complicate this thread, I swear, I just want to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly.

Is anybody out there saying that bass players should be able to play finger per fret and keep all four fingers on all four frets at the same time? If so, why?

[jaebee]

i have always played and known it to be so that you make the stretch. ofpf isnt very effective if you are constantly taking your fingers out of position, the point of ofpf is so you can play boxes horizontally across the fretboard, if you are moving your index finger away from the F, say more towards the F#, then you are essentially shifting position<p>

you dont hold down the frets, but your finger hovers right above them, so that you only have to push down to sound the correct note

[Scot]

Some lines lend themselves better to using 1,2,4 while others do using 1,2,3,4, therefore, I use both. I sometimes use 1,2,(3),4 to cover a 5-fret area and sometimes even use 1,4 to cover a 2-fret area (I often will play 10ths using 1,4 in addition to 2,4 and 1,3). If you're into this sort of thing (and it fits the situation at hand), playing chords (e.g., root, 7th, 10th) on the bass tends to make you have to be flexible with the fingerings as some chords need to have 2, 3 or even 4 fingers playing the same fret. Sometimes I'll use guitarist-style "bars" as well, to further confuse matters.

I often play root/5th or root/octave lines with 1/4, although will use 1,3 or 2,4 where appropriate (depends on pattern which depends on the key or chord and other factors like if I'm shifting up and/or down the neck in the line).

The politically correct answer is "use whatever works for you". The hard-nosed OFOF-user answer is "always use 1,2,3,4". Folks that have moved to BG from DB or have otherwise studied the DB Simandl method often use 1,2,4. 1,2,4 is probably what I use more than any other but my take is to be able to do it all well and not to make any limiting rules that will take away from what I instinctively choose to do.

This topic seems to come up at least several times per month so a search should turn up lot's of detailed opinions on the subject.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

Is anybody out there saying that bass players should be able to play finger per fret and keep all four fingers on all four frets at the same time? If so, why?

Yes, I think you should be able to do that using any fingering system. I've worked to be able to do it everywhere on the fingerboard using OPOP AND 1,2,4 . It's the standard way to do it on DB, although using 1,2,4. It's more efficient to play that way and that's why it's been taught that way for many years in the DB world. The only reasons that I can think of why you would have to lift up your index when playing a note on the same string with your pinky are: a) you can't make the stretch (then you need to work on that) or b) you don't have the required dexterity/independence to do it (which also means you have work to do). Granted, some lines go by so quickly that it barely seems like you had time to get all four fingers down when changing strings and playing a note with the pinky but I do play those same lines slowly to make sure that I'm doing it correctly and I think the fast version of that is better because of it. I've been taught (on BG and DB) not to fall prey to the "flying fingers" approach to playing bass where the fingers are not in the most efficient place at all times, in front of and behind the note being stopped/fretted (not to say I never do fall prey but I try not to). On the BG, it's not like you have to apply "fretting" pressure with the index finger if you're playing a note on the same string with your pinky but my index is definitely right on the string ready to play a note when called upon. Speaking of this, I really strive to only use the amount of pressure necessary to "fret" or "stop" a note and no more. I guess I might be sort of the opposite of some of the light touch plucker guys in that I tend to put the light touch focus on my fretting/stopping fingers while using more variation in touch with my plucking fingers.

[bburk]

Wait, you guys are saying that when you fret a note with your pinky that you only hold the string down with the pinky and not with the other 3 fingers? I've always been taught to fret with all the fingers 'above' the note I'm holding... I can't imagine playing for very long just fretting with my pinky only...

Edit: wait I think I see what Matthew is saying. No you shouldn't ever really have to have four frets in a row fretted, you can collapse your hand even in the OFOF method, but you should be able to reach 4 frets without 'shifting'

However, I'd never lift up my index finger in order to fret with my pinky until I was planning on jumping to another string.

[BadMonk]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

My understanding of "finger per fret" was that each finger plays a fret - but not at the same time...Edit - Just try to make it clear: In my version, you are never holding down more than two frets at a time - you don't hold down all four.

Yes, that is what I meant also. Thanks.

[steve66]

Originally Posted by BadMonk

Does anybody use the alternate 1, 2, and 4 finger technique? I picked up the bass almost two years ago at 49 and still haven't been able to do OFOF. I've tried stretching and playing slow to make the stretch but my hands eventually ache, the notes aren't solid, etc.

I'm 51 and haven't had to stretch my fingers for anything like music, sports, job, whatever. It seems easier to get tendons and muscles to cooperate when they're younger/less stiff. Second, the ring and middle fingers of my left hand barely spread at all, compared to my right.

To compensate, I've been using the 1,2,4 fingers. But, it seems nearly every teacher or instruction that I've seen works on OFOF...which gets really frustrating and I feel kinda awkward about playing anymore. I have/had a few basses and just sold one due to frustration.

Maybe I should try short scale basses.

Try this exercise - note: They are not easy and will take some time. A little each day and dont overdo them. Slow is better than fast. The stretch will hurt, and stop when it does. Go back to it at a later time. Be consistent

i = index finger
m = middle finger
r = ring finger
p = pinky

PART 1

Put your left hand palm down on a table.
Keep all fingers down and just lift the index finger. Hold it as high as you can for 5 seconds. Dont more the other fingers

Now put the index finger down and try the middle finger. hold it as high as you can for 5 seconds. Dont move the other fingers

Next same as above use ring and then pinky

If you can hold each up an inch for 5 seconds your doing good. If not work on that till you can.

PART 2

Now same as above except lift the i and r fingers together, put them down
Now lift the m and p fingers together, put them down

PART 3

When you can comfortably do the above exercises, move to the fretboard g string 9th fret and assign i to 9th fret and r to 11th fret.

Now on the d string assign m to 10th fret and p to 12th fret

Try to alternate lifting off your m and p fingers on the d string while keeping down your i and r fingers on the g string - go slow and dont do to much of this in one sitting. I told you this going to hurt.

Now reverse the exercise

g string assign m to 10th fret and p to 12th fret
d string 9th fret and assign i to 9th fret and r to 11th fret.

Try to alternate lifting off your i and r fingers on the d string while keeping your m and p fingers on the g string.


You can figure out other combinations - but you should have the general idea - repeat go slow and dont do to much

Good luck - I had broke my ring and pinky fingers a few times when I was younger and as I got older arthritis set in. (40 years old now) These exercise improved my dexteriy and helped with my athritis. no more pain.

Stick with it and soon you will be able to have control and flexibility in all fingers so playing 1FPF should be easier

[BadMonk]

I did some more research and found a thread that addresses this too. Todd Johnson weighed in and I think I'll follow his advice...along the same lines as what some here kindly put forth. Thanks.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f140/finger-per-fret-todd-please-help-348793/#post4462713

[Scot]

Originally Posted by bburk

No you shouldn't ever really have to have four frets in a row fretted, you can collapse your hand even in the OFOF method, but you should be able to reach 4 frets without 'shifting'

I don't see how collapsing your hand could possibly be considered any kind of proper technique, period. In the DB world it would be considered bad technique to collapse your hand in any position. For (a Simandl) example, if you're playing a low G note in half position (pinky stopping the G note on the E string), your index would be in position on the string exactly where the F note resides, your middle would be on the string where the F# note resides and your middle would be right next to the pinky supporting it. If you're playing (in the same position) the F note on the E string, all the other fingers would be in the exact same place only slightly hovering above the string but as close as possible so that minimal movement is needed if the F# or G notes are required. Things shouldn't change in the BG world using 1,2,4 or OFOF. The stretch you have to make on DB (in the above mentioned position) using Simandl (1,2,4) is comparable to the one you would make on BG using OFOF. Proper position playing doesn't only mean not having to make a shift but also means that all fingers are as ready as possible to play the notes in the position.

[JebSmells]

You can do whatever technique you want, 1,2,4 1,3,4 or just play with your first finger all the time, it makes no differentce so long as you accept that eventually (deending on how deep you want to go) you will run into something that requires a more advanced technique (and you'll really wish you had practised and got it down when you started).

i haven't read the whole of this thread, so maybe someone else has pointed this out (sorry if that's the case).

But i just felt it neccessary to say, it's fine to do whatever you want to, but working on good technique can make a lot of difference, and whenever anyone starts trying to do anything physical that's new it can take a while to build up the neccessary muscles and flexibility needed, but it's worth it if you can!

[bburk]

Originally Posted by Scot

I don't see how collapsing your hand could possibly be considered any kind of proper technique, period.

Isn't playing with a 124 technique just collapsing your hand one fret from the OFOF technique? I'm confused by your example... are you saying that playing OFOF at the nut of a bass is the only technique that is 'proper'? If I choose to play 124 at the nut for a Fmajor arpeggio, is that wrong becuase I was playing OFOF for a Bbminor a moment earlier?

I can understand that keeping your finger above a note that you intend to play is a good idea for obvious reasons, and for that you need to be able to make the 1-4 stretch, but I don't see any reason to waste energy holding my finger above a note unless I plan on playing it next (or at least very shortly). So, I just switch between 124 and OFOF as needed, favoring 124 when I can for its economy and efficiency. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.

Consider the Emajor scale at the nut. I can play the first 6 notes with just a 124 technique (on the 2nd and 4th frets and open strings). But when I get to the D# I just open my hand and switch to OFOF to finish out the scale. I don't know if that's 'proper' but it sure is 'easy'. The alternative would be playing the F# and G# with my middle and pinky (instead of my index and ring+pinky) which, while I could certainly do it, IMO it would be wasted energy and effort. If I did that for too long, I might tire and eventually misfret or otherwise get sloppy.

If it's wrong, I don't need to be right.

[phippsyg]

It all comes down to economy of motion. You should be able to play a note with the minimum amount of effort. Being close to the strings and having your fingers across four frets at once is the most economical way to do this. Practicing good tecnique is about making what you play easier.
Having said this if playing 1,2,4 works for you, and that is what you can do. Then don't stress. But I have taught ofof for a while now and have had children achieve this technique through correct biomechanics. If you do want to persevere with trying to get this tecnique. Heres a checklist-
-Elbow tucked into the side of your ribs (with small children I have had them hold a tennis ball here, it works!)
-thumb behind second finger, half way down the neck
-playing on your fingertips
But if you can't get it, as I said , no biggie, but why anyone would teach 1,2,4 to someone as mentioned before is beyond me. Double bass fingerings aren't meant for the electric, they are 2 different instruments. The reason for this type of fingering is due to the fact that the distance of a semitone in 1st position is so great. It also allows your 3rd finger to support your pinky a little. These things should't be an issue on electric.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by bburk

Isn't playing with a 124 technique just collapsing your hand one fret from the OFOF technique?

I guess it can be thought of in that way but the word "collapsing" implies an involuntary action, no? If I'm interpreting your posts correctly, it seems like what your saying is that your fingering technique combines the two together, at the same time - when you're playing OFOF you're covering a four fret area but your hand collapses into a 1,2,4 position as it's default position. I think we might be approaching things pretty much the same way except that I might be making more of a distinction between the two. When I'm clearly playing something (in any position) and sticking to a strict 1,2,3,4 (I sometimes find myself using a pretty strict 1,2,3,4 on the BG playing stuff like bebop lines/solos - 1/8 notes) I'm keeping my hand in the 1,2,3,4 playing position at all times or, in other words, my hand never "collapses".

Originally Posted by bburk

I'm confused by your example... are you saying that playing OFOF at the nut of a bass is the only technique that is 'proper'? If I choose to play 124 at the nut for a Fmajor arpeggio, is that wrong becuase I was playing OFOF for a Bbminor a moment earlier?

Oh, I can see why you might be confused about that and I apologize for the confusion. Try to read through my other posts in this thread and, hopefully, that will clear up some of the confusion. To summarize, I'm not of the opinion that either fingering system is "proper" in any position. What I'm saying is that there is a "proper" way to do either fingering system in any position, including at the nut. I switch between the two all the time and I think we might be approaching things pretty much the same way with minor differences, mostly in the way we think about playing the two. I'm not sure if you're aware of it but, in your example with the Bb minor and F Major in half position (or "at the nut", as you say), if you're sticking to 1,2,4 (the Simandl fingerings) you would play the F major (triad) in half position and you would play the first note of the Bb minor (triad) in half position and then would shift up to 1st position to play the rest of the triad. The upright doesn't really allow you to do this sort of half one approach and half another thing. You have to fully commit to each position, at least using the Simandl fingering system. On the BG I might very well approach those two triads like you do, switching between 1,2,4 and OFOF but I just don't think of it as "collapsing" my hand but, rather, changing my fingering system. I try to always be aware of which position I'm in and which fingering system I'm using.

Originally Posted by bburk

I can understand that keeping your finger above a note that you intend to play is a good idea for obvious reasons, and for that you need to be able to make the 1-4 stretch, but I don't see any reason to waste energy holding my finger above a note unless I plan on playing it next (or at least very shortly).

Well, you gotta keep your fingers somewhere when they're not playing a note. I guess I also differ from you a little in that I don't view the 1-4 stretch thing as any kind of a waste of energy or something that's incredibly difficult to do and have to save for those absolutely necessary situations. It's really not that rough to do so, again, I keep my fingers in the correct playing position in whichever playing position I happen to be choosing to play in. I switch to one or the other because I want to and not because I need to give my hand a rest.

Originally Posted by bburk

So, I just switch between 124 and OFOF as needed, favoring 124 when I can for its economy and efficiency. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.

While I do also tend to favor 1,2,4, I think we have some differences of opinion here. I don't see 1,2,4 as being more economical or efficient. I use 1,2,4 mostly because I like the feel and sound I get using it for many things. I do find it more comfortable for a lot of things but that's more of a personal preference than a declaration of it's superiority over OFOF in the economy or efficiency departments.

Originally Posted by bburk

Consider the Emajor scale at the nut. I can play the first 6 notes with just a 124 technique (on the 2nd and 4th frets and open strings). But when I get to the D# I just open my hand and switch to OFOF to finish out the scale. I don't know if that's 'proper' but it sure is 'easy'. The alternative would be playing the F# and G# with my middle and pinky (instead of my index and ring+pinky) which, while I could certainly do it, IMO it would be wasted energy and effort. If I did that for too long, I might tire and eventually misfret or otherwise get sloppy.

This is very similar to the other example with the F and Bb minor triads. The Simandl method would have you play the first six notes in 1st position (index on the F# and pinky on the G#) and then you have to either shift down to half position (index on the D#) to play the last two notes or shift down to half to play the 7th note and then shift back to 1st to play the last (using the index for both notes). On BG, I could easily use either of your approaches and wouldn't feel like I'm wasting any effort or energy. There is some of that "comfort" factor but that is tied-in with the line I'm playing and/or sound I'm going for. Some things just feel more comfortable playing one way or the other and I think a lot of that has to do with what my ears are telling me (and I try to always make them the boss). You should play some upright (if you don't already)! You'll be doing all that stuff you mention on the BG in your sleep after you've developed some upright chops.

Originally Posted by bburk

If it's wrong, I don't need to be right.

I don't care about the "right or wrong" thing either. With all that stuff said, I feel like I've come across as a left hand technique snob and it really isn't like that. I do the Rocco left hand muting thing (where you play a note with the LH first or second finger and then mute with the other two LH fingers) all the time in my playing. This completely breaks all the rules of "proper" LH fingering I've been ranting about. I just think, for me, it's important to know the "proper" way to do things as I understand and have been taught and then I can break those rules as I see fit.

Whew! That was a long post! I'm glad I wrote it, even if only for my own clarification.