Over-practicing?

[SurferJoe46]

Since I was in the 'moving-mode' from one state to another and I didn't get to play much at all - no gigs and no practice for about three weeks, I have an interesting observation.

The past two days I've noticed that some of those trickier passages in songs that always stumped me somewhat, became easier.

Fingers flew instinctively to the right places and the attack was clear, clean and just the way it should be.

I've had marathon practices for a gig on the next weekend, learning new scores and getting the timing and nuances down pat, only to feel like I was playing robotically - not evocatively.

For some reason, a small vacation was very good for me and maybe there's something here to note: over-practicing is not good.

There must be a point in time that is not good to pass over for practicing - wot?

[maxgrant]

I think people continue to develop in a discipline even if they stop the discipline for awhile. Only for awhile, though.

Someone once asked in this forum what people could do to practice without practicing. A Very Famous Bassist came down from his perch to sneer at the idea, and proceeded to prove to me that even A Very Famous Bassist can have zero imagination or tolerance for unorthodox ideas.

But in reality, when I'm burning hot (when I'm playing a lot and working on some longer goal) I can stop playing for 3-4 days and realize that in my head I am still trying to work out exactly how I can fit this riff or that line together. I'm crossing fingers and running patterns and twitching and humming and even singing the bass lines I am interested in.

So, I think you keep "practicing" even when you don't realize it. Your brain just gets a chance to do some housekeeping. Maybe it's like what happens in REM sleep.

[bertbassplayer]

I always liked the quote "Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

John Petrucci said that him and John Myung (Dream Theater) had a pact that they'd practice at least 6 hours a day.

That being said, you can practice badly as well. I guess what I'm saying, is I don't think time is the problem. It's making sure your reinforcing good technique and not just ingraining bad habits. It's also important to do what you were doing and progress. Too often people just practice stuff they already know, so even though they might be practicing for 4-5 hours a day they really aren't getting better.

[Joe Nerve]

Like anything else, I think a break once in a while does us good. We come back with a new appreciation, refreshed, and a little more excited about playing than right after 5 hours of working on something.

I think the term "over-practicing" is a little dangerous though. Was just thinking today that when people make things look super easy, most people watching assume it just comes to those people. That they have some sort of inate talent or something. While I'm sure that happens from time to time, it's more often from people practicing and working their asses off. Hours in the house that ya don't see.

I just started playing in a zep tribute. They want to add the lemon song. I can play it no problem, my way... but if I want to nail it note for note (which I do), that's not going to come from an hour with the CD. It's going to come from hours and hours and hours and hours, time put in that nobody will know about but me. And then, if and when I nail it, I'm sure a few people will wonder - how the hell does he do that? He does that by sitting for hours and hours and hours working on nailing it.

Big question for me is, is it worth it? I"m considering it a challenge right now.

Anyhow, I prefer to look at the idea in the OP as it being good to rest once in a while. Not, it's no good to over practice. Subtle, but important difference IMO.

[Fergie Fulton]

Practice at anything reinforces what you practice..so practice wrong or bad and you will make it a constant reality that you will not improve because you are practicing at not improving.

A break from practice or routine lets us re-dress what we should and want to be doing with what we are actually doing. So when we first come back we instictivly do what is right, till our prracticed routine takes over and we gradulally go back to the dominante habits we have ingrained through practice.

The difference in results from practice or rehearsal is the one point that some actually do it wrong and others do it right.
Those that do it right get better and faster results to be where they want to be, those that do it wrong end up confused, hurt, and unable to understand why they do not get better after all the practice they do......again they fail to see they are practicing at being bad...and ingraining the habits and skills.

It is well documented in stories and accounts that in most walks of life just taking a break from the routine helps use to re-evaluate what we do and sort of ' re-set' the mental side of what we do......after all we really are what we think we are, and deep down it is our own self belief that will expose us or let us down when we need it most.

[SurferJoe46]

I've noticed that the weeks that went by, I had bass boxes and arpeggio patterns running in my head and was phantom playing to the ever-constant music that I keep playing wherever I go.

Maybe just listening to a bass fill is good too. Sit still and listen. Don't grab the bass - just listen.

[SBassman]

Our brains Do work on things when we are physically not.

Another version of this is someone solving some sort of a problem.
Very often, the solution comes - the first thing the next morning.
Overnight, the brain works on the problem.

I have encountered this dozens of times in my life.

In the world of bass, nothing Replaces actually physically practicing, but you can still get a benefit by Visualizing what you play on a particular song.

If you're sitting on a train wasting an hour or more of your day, visualizing your playing is definitely better than nothing.

[bassnj]

I found that taking a day here and there off and just listening to music helps me as a musician.

As for Petrucci and Myung's pact: they should have learned songwriting as well. Then maybe their music wouldn't be so boring.

[redcloud]

Well, a little rest is a good thing. I had a private clinic with a very accomplished guitar teacher located in Chicago. He insisted that in order to improve one should take one day a week and not even consider the guitar, let alone play or practice.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by SBassman

Our brains Do work on things when we are physically not.

Another version of this is someone solving some sort of a problem.
Very often, the solution comes - the first thing the next morning.
Overnight, the brain works on the problem.

I have encountered this dozens of times in my life.

In the world of bass, nothing Replaces actually physically practicing, but you can still get a benefit by Visualizing what you play on a particular song.

If you're sitting on a train wasting an hour or more of your day, visualizing your playing is definitely better than nothing.

+1.

I often run interval recognition bits and visualize the fret-board connecting them away from the instrument, sometimes just for quick reference, it is a great reinforcement method for sure.

Taking breaks is important, I do find things easier to play coming back to it. I thought it might be the brain up-taking subconsciously but the fingers and technique seem to benefit physically too. Maybe it's to do with ligament building or just spanning your hands for however long, plus the subconscious reinforcement. I'll take days off, weeks if I can now and again, refresh.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

+1.

I often run interval recognition bits and visualize the fret-board connecting them away from the instrument, sometimes just for quick reference, it is a great reinforcement method for sure.

Taking breaks is important, I do find things easier to play coming back to it. I thought it might be the brain up-taking subconsciously but the fingers and technique seem to benefit physically too. Maybe it's to do with ligament building or just spanning your hands for however long, plus the subconscious reinforcement. I'll take days off, weeks if I can now and again, refresh.

This is the essence of internalisation, (minds eye) if you can think it you can play it.

If anyone wants to try it, listen to a new piece of music over a few times and without any instrument, play what you think is happening..see the fretboard and see your fingers playing the notes.....then hear those notes and intervals.....then put the two together so you hear and see the notes being played as if you are watching yourself doing it.

Do this for a few days and each time change what your think is happening to suit what you now hear and see in your mind. At some point, usually after 4-5 days, pick up the instrument and play what you learned. In this element of playing alter, to suit what you thought you were hearing, remember this will be the first time you will have put it on the instrument so a certain ammount will need to be ordered to make it truely sound right.

Then listen to the song again, and play it through in your minds eye, then once you have it, play it to the recording and see how well you done.
Learning to do this will see the proccess become faster as the internalisation becomes natural....almost to the extent that you can hear a song and whistle or hum it, you will hear a song and know how to play it.
Once you have this down then the only thing to work on is the physical task of playing, you already know what it is you want to play, so the task is not learning it and playing it, just playing it, or representing it on the bass.

After all playing it is just the representation of what you know, if i asked you do you know '???????????' and you said 'yes' then asking you to grab a trombone and play it for me only proves, if you cannot do it, that its not that you don't know it, it just proves you can't play trombone.....a different skill to knowing it.

Try it and see...again this is a skill to learn, so take time and go with instinct rather than getting it right. Trying to get it right will change the nature of the task, the task is to learn from what is right and learn from what is wrong and over time take what you know to be right and dismiss what you know to be wrong to come to the correct answers in the end...not at the time.
So if you get more wrong at the start, it will eventually give you more information in the long run to dismiss and go with what is right. This ratio will change and become faster and better as you progress through this exercise of practice because you will know what is right and also know what is wrong before you even go near the bass, so again the task of playing it is easier because the task of learning has been done ( the rhythm of it).....even if this is the first time you have tried to play it.

[punkinfantry]

Originally Posted by bassnj

I found that taking a day here and there off and just listening to music helps me as a musician.

As for Petrucci and Myung's pact: they should have learned songwriting as well. Then maybe their music wouldn't be so boring.

i agree, i would much rather write calculus than listen to it

as for practicing, i take the "it's all just muscle memory anyway, let the bass play you" approach

[Clef_de_fa]

Impossible to over-practice, but taking a break from time to time is important.

What I do is like if a try to learn some slap I'll play it for maybe 2 weeks then I'll practice something else for a week and then back at the slap exercice.

So you nerve stop practicing but you take a break from what may be too much of the same thing.

[elgecko]

An old timer once told me "Don't practice yourself out of a gig!".

Congrats on the move, how are the gig opportunities up there in Big Sky Country?

[bassnj]

Seriously . . . a person can over-practice by over-practicing a PARTICULAR thing(s), while leaving other stuff out. If all I do is practice modes for three months, and leave out the major and minor pentatonic scales in every position on the fretboard, how good is my playing going to be? If I all I practice is scales, and never learn chord theory, how good is my playing going to be?

A lot of the best practicing I ever did was to open a book or watch a video about something I didn't know - and THEN pick up a bass and try it, then get frustrated as hell - then read the book or watch the video again - then try it again . . .

Sure, Myung, Petrrucci, et. al spend hours opon hours upon decades learning songs note-for-note, but isn't it also good to learn enough about MUSIC to be able to swing with whatever situtation you're thrown into? The Myungs of this world are good not only because of their technical and mechanical ability, but because they know music and they know their instruments. Myung can probably site-read and glance half-hazardly at a chord chart and know what to do.

Having said that . . . DT still bores the hell out of me.

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by elgecko

An old timer once told me "Don't practice yourself out of a gig!".

Congrats on the move, how are the gig opportunities up there in Big Sky Country?

I've got some private stuff going this weekend - not a New Year party though. I also hooked with a really great singer in Missoula and another pretty good guitarist who did some Las Vegas warm-up gigs.

Found a drummer - that may or may not be a good thing though as he comes in with a lot of baggage.

The late Spring and all Summer is a great time for gigs and even some busking when the tourists and fishermen are here.

Lots of bluegrass and lots of jazz here too in the evenings. Lots of bistros and cafes too.

CW? Not so much, although it SHOULD be here in every place you look, but it seems to be on the lower end of need for clubs.

I'm not talking about playing the hootches, but I can't say a bar fight is a good idea either at my age.

Guns everywhere may or may not be a good thing:::



Ahem!

[elgecko]

I spent time around Dillon...I'd always wondered why they called it Big Sky Country until I got there. The people there are so nice it was almost creepy for a native Angeleno like myself. Unfortunately, there was an acute lack of decent Mexican food, even in bigger cities like Butte.

When it thaws out, you have to hit Glacier National Park if you haven't been. It's outrageous!

[SurferJoe46]

Had a great Mexican meal at a place called The Filling Station in Hamilton. I too thought it might not be good, but it was.

Great shredded beef and the salsa was to die for.

Dillon is pretty windy. I had a logging chain blow across the yard in the wind. I like the weather here in the Banana Valley much better!

BTW: I once lived at East/Raymond and LaPalma.

[Tupac]

You know, it goes against everything we know about the learning process. The concept of learning a skill means to keep doing something over and over, looking for the confirmation variable (which is a good sound in the case of bass), and replicating it for improvement. That's the simplest way to explain what's going on when you get better at something. However, I've noticed this as well. Maybe it's just like taking a break and refreshing your creative juices. I really don't know.

Originally Posted by bassnj

I found that taking a day here and there off and just listening to music helps me as a musician.

As for Petrucci and Myung's pact: they should have learned songwriting as well. Then maybe their music wouldn't be so boring.

I agree.

[SurferJoe46]

Well - it worked well enough - the short break did - and even though the novelty of getting back onto a neck with my fingers was good, I see that I've been mentally refreshed too.