Overplaying on songs that you aren't particularly fond of.

jnprather · #1 06-20-2007, 12:31 AM

A post I made in another thread (Too Many Notes) got me thinking about something...

Several years ago I was filling in for a handful of gigs with a friend's band. The music was relatively simple pop-punk music, mostly straight 8th root notes with some walking parts. The singer in the band (who also wrote 99% of the music including the bass parts) was nice about letting me stretch out a bit sometimes but he was quick to call me out when he thought i was overplaying.

Here's the interesting thing. After awhile, I started to notice a trend. That being, I would always have the urge to embellish/add notes to/overplay basslines in songs that I wasn't particularly fond of. Conversely, on the 3 or 4 songs that I geniuinely liked, alot, I played every bassline note for note, never once having the urge to add anything to the very simple bassline.

To me, on the songs that I truly liked, I saw the bassline as a simple part of a full "song", and wanted nothing more than to stay true to the original bassline so I could enjoy the song. On the songs that I flat out didn't like, I saw the bassline as just that, a series of bass notes, and my brain wanted to add to it, and make it "interesting" to me.

On a similar topic, I remember learning a few Beatles songs, and learned Saw Her Standing There. I remember learning the bassline and thinking "man, that is just a great bassline". The more I thought about it, though, the more I came to the conclusion that the bassline itself was nothing really special, but the song itself is a great song, therefore it was really gratifying to me to play that bassline, when in reality I was just enjoying playing part of a great song.

To extend the discussion even further, I would venture to say that raw appreciation for music is in an of itself a deterrent to overplaying. The more music that we can appreciate, regardless of genre/style, the more likely we will be to stay true to the original bassline, and play it with conviction.

Anyway, I thought that was interesting stuff and worth sharing. Any thoughts? I'm curious if anybody has noticed the same phenomenon with their own playing.

John

JimmyM · #2 06-20-2007, 01:15 AM

I've noticed it in about 80% of the people I've ever worked with. I like overplaying when it's done for a musical statement, but when a musician gets bored and starts overplaying, it makes audiences want to leave because you're not being genuine. If you're that bored when you're playing, you shouldn't even be onstage. I consider it the height of unprofessionalism to overplay when you're bored.

PilbaraBass · #3 06-20-2007, 04:22 AM

I actually do the opposite...if I don't particularly like a song, I do my best to play it well so that it will come off to it's best potential...I concentrate on the line, the feel, everyone else (especially everyone else)...

good songs sell themselves, and I usually just instantly hit the pocket and have fun.

jnprather · #4 06-20-2007, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilbaraBass

I actually do the opposite...if I don't particularly like a song, I do my best to play it well so that it will come off to it's best potential...I concentrate on the line, the feel, everyone else (especially everyone else)...

good songs sell themselves, and I usually just instantly hit the pocket and have fun.

That's interesting, as I was writing I was thinking many people might be the opposite of my experiences, mainly for the reason that if they're into the song they get way into playing their bass and start throwing in stuff, while as they plod through songs they don't like, they can barely muster the energy to play the bare essentials. It'll be interesting to see what the consensus is among the TBers that respond to this...

BassChuck · #5 06-20-2007, 06:11 AM

[quote=jnprather;4330539.On a similar topic, I remember learning a few Beatles songs, and learned Saw Her Standing There. I remember learning the bassline and thinking "man, that is just a great bassline". The more I thought about it, though, the more I came to the conclusion that the bassline itself was nothing really special, but the song itself is a great song, therefore it was really gratifying to me to play that bassline, when in reality I was just enjoying playing part of a great song.

To extend the discussion even further, I would venture to say that raw appreciation for music is in an of itself a deterrent to overplaying. John[/QUOTE]

Yep, its called respect. When something is good, you want it to be presented as well as possible.

I've found that on songs I really don't like, I'll even 'dumb down' the bass line and make the song even worse. That's not being a good sport I know, but it does have a moment of self expression.

What do you think of the idea that that if you really like a song, you'll try to do it in different ways to show it off even more. Your example of "I Saw Her Standing There". What wold it be like of done as a ballad? Trying to get past the fact that nearly everyone in English speaking countries have heard this song a million times, what would a ballad treatment of the music do to the lyric? It could turn it into a sweet nostalgic moment. Is that being disrespectful to the music? Not if you believe in it.

louieeadg · #6 06-20-2007, 08:20 AM

Well....I see what you're saying and here's my take: you were standing in for someone else and playing songs someone else wrote. That's pretty much like being a studio musician, they don't care about your chops, they want you to play the bass how they like it and wrote it. Throwing in a fill here and there during changes and bridges and such will add a lot to a song, giving the bass a voice which is good. Getting bored and being a choposaurus during the verse while the singer is singing, bad. I'm not the biggest fan of punk but I've played a bit of it with a couple bands and the beauty of a good bassline in that type of music is in the subtleties. The extra two or three notes every here and there can make a world of difference, giving the bass a voice. There isn't a prominent instrument in that type of music, its the balanced combination of noise that creates the feeling.

Now, in a band situation where you're composing your own basslines its a little different but we bassists have a responsiblity to the rest of the musicians because we generally(should) constantly hear/see the big picture. Its much like Ernest Hemingway's writing(sorry if I ramble, I'm an english major), "never use 7 words in a sentence when 4 will do." The same rule applies to music, especially bass. We're the bridge between the rhythm section and those high-pitched noises from the guy with the pick. All those extra tools we have, ie hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, harmonics, chords, double stops, triplets, etc., are all supposed to be used to voice something and create a feeling. I think that's all.

cheers!

Silas Martinez · #7 06-20-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnprather

Here's the interesting thing. After awhile, I started to notice a trend. That being, I would always have the urge to embellish/add notes to/overplay basslines in songs that I wasn't particularly fond of. Conversely, on the 3 or 4 songs that I geniuinely liked, alot, I played every bassline note for note, never once having the urge to add anything to the very simple bassline.

Actually, My experience isn't precisely the opposite, but close. On songs that I really don't case for, I'll find myself practicing in an almost 'zen' state, cutting way back and sticking it deep in the pocket. I think I used to overplay songs like that, similar to what you state, but at some point I realized it wasn't helping the song any, and didn't make me like it any better, so ... I stopped. After doing that, I started hearing comments from fans about how much they like the song.

On songs that I do like, I find that I really like them because they allow me the space to stretch out with tasteful fills and little runs, and still have the piece sound musical and tight.

bburk · #8 06-20-2007, 03:54 PM

Personally, when I find myself in a situation where I feel like I need to throw extra stuff into a bass line, it's usually because I don't like the bass line. Not that it's simple or boring, but that it's wrong for the song. So I start trying to find the 'right' bassline by tossing in excessive fills, changing up rhythms and so forth.

If the bassline is 'simple' (read 'boring'), but 'right' then I'm usually content on working on timing, dynamics and feel. That's a lot to concentrate on right there.

MysticMichael · #9 06-20-2007, 04:17 PM

Interesting topic...

I sometimes find myself overplaying on songs that I do like - because my enthusiasm knows no bounds, and my instinct is to see what I can add to make it even better. So I have to catch myself, and dial it back. But I guess playing busily isn't necessarily overplaying. Depends on the material...

More than overplaying (or even underplaying) on material that I don't like, I sometimes find it hard to find the groove - which is often the reason why I don't like it in the first place: because the groove isn't clear or pleasant to me. So I might inadvertently overplay while trying to find it. If I can catch the groove, however, then I can at least enjoy it for what's it worth - even if I still don't like the song as a whole...

MM

Scot · #10 06-20-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I consider it the height of unprofessionalism to overplay when you're bored.

Then I guess you wouldn't at all approve if I was watching the Giants game on TV when bored on the gig.

Nice thread!

JimmyM · #11 06-20-2007, 04:58 PM

Scot, you are absolutely right. Any time there's a TV in sight of the stage, I do my best to ignore it completely. Otherwise I catch myself watching it. You're not getting paid to let people watch you watch TV.

Sneckumhaw · #12 06-20-2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louieeadg

I'm not the biggest fan of punk but I've played a bit of it with a couple bands and the beauty of a good bassline in that type of music is in the subtleties. The extra two or three notes every here and there can make a world of difference, giving the bass a voice. There isn't a prominent instrument in that type of music, its the balanced combination of noise that creates the feeling.

You know it. Many bassists could stand to learn a thing or two from punk.

Scot · #13 06-20-2007, 05:27 PM

Words of wisdom, JimmyM.

Actually, on a related-note...I was playing a gig at a club where a television is within sight of the stage and a good portion of the audience members as well. I started noticing members of the audience looking away from the band and up at the TV - first a couple and then more kept joining in. Then I noticed most of the band was staring at the TV. I looked up at the TV and ended up watching the highlights of the Miss Swimsuit International pageant along with half the club, all while winding down a distracted version of "All Night Long".

Sorry for going off topic.

Fred W · #14 06-20-2007, 07:07 PM

I find I tend to overplay when I play with weak musicians. With great players the rests sound so good there's no point playing anything extraneous. Poor player's time tends to be vague and confused, leading me to overfill.

winstonthecat · #15 06-21-2007, 10:22 AM

I agree with a lot of the sentiments here. I've found that if it is a good song with some dynamics, I don't get bored. But songs I don't care fore with simplistic (as opposed to simple) bass lines can get tiresome. I like to focus on adding feel, and dynamics, with maybe a slight variation here and there. That said, I'm a relatively new bass player, so I don't think I could overplay even if I wanted to

All_¥our_Bass · #16 06-21-2007, 05:29 PM

I have to REALLY like a bassline to play it note for note. This does not necicarily mean I will overplay on songs that are boring and/or have boring basslines but I will change them to be more intersting.

John Wentzien · #17 06-25-2007, 09:41 PM

Most composers are not bass players. I like guys that realize that- and let me come up with the bass part that compliments the song. I also try to pick other instrumentalists that I know will come up with a great part on their particular area of expertise. They will usually write something better for the song than I could have come up with for their instrument.

P. Aaron · #18 06-26-2007, 08:06 PM

Being in a cover band...most songs I play never got 2 seconds of my attention when originally released. I now suffer these songs to learn them in their miserable entirety. I work to execute these awful tunes in both tone & technique, grimacing much of the time.

It's a paying gig. So it's not about me, it's all about audience retention & club owner satisfaction. Get away from the song(s) arrangement & style and the audience can't leave fast enough. The club owners can book any other band that plays the songs true to keep patrons there.

To most musicians, much of POP music is a tough sell for listening. But it's a better paying gig than many other styles. So choose the attitude that a pro would: play it like a pro...all the time, or be the greatest musicain in your own (originals) band.

Some original bands do get noticed, but it's a long hard road & the pay is not always there.