Painful finger tips...suggestions?

[johnepipe]

14 year old son is an avid player in love with bass playing, BUT came home literally in tears after jamming saying that his finger tips, on the hand he plucks the strings, are always sore. He said that after playing 30 minutes it hurts so much. He thinks it is a physical limitation that will keep him from playing. Did not disclose this to us until yesterday, and said it is always been that way for two years. He was so down he thinks he may not be physically able to play the bass, even though his talent has been recognized locally as many bands ask him to play with him.

Is there suggestions to help the pain? Conditioning? Creams to apply on tips of fingers to numb them? I know...use a pick would be an answer, but he loves finger playing.

Any suggestions may help my distressed son!

[PJSShearer]

Hmm, my two pennyworth:

Practising little and often will cause calllouses to form on the finger tips - when things start getting sore, stop playing until the next day, but play every day and pretty soon the skin will harden up and you'll be able to stick pins your finger tips and not feel anything.

I recall Violinists swore by rubbing rubbing alcohol into their finger tips to harden the skin, although I've not tried it.

If after 30 minutes playing, his finger tips are too sore to carry on then I would suggest that he probably has the same issue I had when I was 14 - my friends called me "Clatterfrets" at the time because I hit the strings far too hard!!.

[nysbob]

We've all had to go through that.

He's probably playing a lot harder when he plays with his buddies. Tell him to practise the way he plays and he'll develop good callouses. If he doesn't get them, he's not playing enough.

[lazy old sun]

I know it would change his tone, but my fingertips appreciate it when I play flatwounds as opposed to roundwounds.

Having to adapt his tone is better than not being able to play at all.

[Risen]

He has to practice everyday until his fingertips get a little sore, and then after that let him shake his hands to get a little more blood in them. At least thats what I do.Im also 14

[midgetlover]

PLAY WITH A PICK.

people hate on it. but if it hurts him then why risk somthing serious. plus, if you cant play with a pick you're at a disadvantage in my mind. personally it was hard for me to get good at pick playing, but its so worth it in the long run. encourage him to play around with it.

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by johnepipe

14 year old son is an avid player in love with bass playing, BUT came home literally in tears after jamming saying that his finger tips, on the hand he plucks the strings, are always sore. He said that after playing 30 minutes it hurts so much. He thinks it is a physical limitation that will keep him from playing. Did not disclose this to us until yesterday, and said it is always been that way for two years. He was so down he thinks he may not be physically able to play the bass, even though his talent has been recognized locally as many bands ask him to play with him.

Is there suggestions to help the pain? Conditioning? Creams to apply on tips of fingers to numb them? I know...use a pick would be an answer, but he loves finger playing.

Any suggestions may help my distressed son!

I see some of the advice given here and in other situations regarding playing with pain and it makes me CRINGE. While there is some truth to the idea of building up callouses, conditioning etc., there is simply no reason to advise ANYONE to play through pain.

My guess - having taught a number of young students and having been one myself a long time ago - is that your son is playing WAY to hard to be heard when playing with other musicians. Probably because he is playing through a beginner/bedroom amp. We've all owned them...they're great at letting you hear yourself at home...but get out into the real world with a bunch of guitar amps cranked to 10 and all of a sudden kids are digging in and playing as hard as they possibly can simply to be heard above the din. It's a conundrum for younger players , but not having wattage and EQ flexibility to be heard in a mix can really lead to problems.

You'd be surprised how much happier your son would be if he could play at louder volumes but with a lighter touch - there's NO reason he should be playing with pain that would drive him to tears. I learned this lesson a long time ago...let the amp do all the work and I'd barely need to touch the strings to be able to play 4 hour sets without thinking twice about it.

I'd also recommend your son learn to stretch before and after he plays, so that his hands are nice and loose and has good circulation. This is important. But again, there's no substitute for a good quality setup that will allow your son to hear himself without having to play as hard as he possibly can just to hear himself, kill his wrists and fingers, and potentially develop tendonitis or, heaven forbid, carpal tunnel. I'd also recommend you find your son a good teacher who can take a good look at his technique and style and potentially make some recommendations of how he can improve.

Also of note - I respect the opinions of all Talkbass'ers but PLEASE consider the expertise level of people you are getting advice from in this thread. Ergonomics and repetitive motion problems are a serious concern for musicians and need to be dealt with carefully.

Lonnybass

[stix_clgi]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

I see some of the advice given here and in other situations regarding playing with pain and it makes me CRINGE. While there is some truth to the idea of building up callouses, conditioning etc., there is simply no reason to advise ANYONE to play through pain.

My guess - having taught a number of young students and having been one myself a long time ago - is that your son is playing WAY to hard to be heard when playing with other musicians. Probably because he is playing through a beginner/bedroom amp. We've all owned them...they're great at letting you hear yourself at home...but get out into the real world with a bunch of guitar amps cranked to 10 and all of a sudden kids are digging in and playing as hard as they possibly can simply to be heard above the din. It's a conundrum for younger players , but not having wattage and EQ flexibility to be heard in a mix can really lead to problems.

You'd be surprised how much happier your son would be if he could play at louder volumes but with a lighter touch - there's NO reason he should be playing with pain that would drive him to tears. I learned this lesson a long time ago...let the amp do all the work and I'd barely need to touch the strings to be able to play 4 hour sets without thinking twice about it.

I'd also recommend your son learn to stretch before and after he plays, so that his hands are nice and loose and has good circulation. This is important. But again, there's no substitute for a good quality setup that will allow your son to hear himself without having to play as hard as he possibly can just to hear himself, kill his wrists and fingers, and potentially develop tendonitis or, heaven forbid, carpal tunnel. I'd also recommend you find your son a good teacher who can take a good look at his technique and style and potentially make some recommendations of how he can improve.

Also of note - I respect the opinions of all Talkbass'ers but PLEASE consider the expertise level of people you are getting advice from in this thread. Ergonomics and repetitive motion problems are a serious concern for musicians and need to be dealt with carefully.

Lonnybass

I may not have the length of time playing or experience of Lonnybass, but I totally agree. I play in the praise and worship band at my church, and the music can get pretty loud at times, with an organ, guitars, drums, vocals, and keyboards. My first amp was a 50w Rougue that barely pushed out enough sound for me to hear myself playing, and I sat next to the amp! When my first "real" performance amp was given to me-Kustom Powerbass combo, 250w-I found that I did not have to play as hard to get the tone and volume that I wanted. As a result, the pain and cramps that I was famous for getting right in the middle of a song stopped happening. My callouses built up over time, but I can now play for hours at church, if need be, without any pain. I would invest in a better amp and bass lessons.

My 2cents

[steveksux]

Normally callouses build up to eliminate that.

He's playing too hard/too often/too long.

Same with exercise, weight lifting, any stress the body must adapt to. You get stronger when you REST.

Stress breaks the body down. It heals stronger to deal with it. The trick is to give it time to let it heal.

Take a day off. Play with a lighter touch. Stop playing when it starts hurting.

Over time he'll be fine. Once callouses form, he can play longer harder and more often with no problem. You have to build up gradually, a little more each time, not expect it all at once.

Problem is he's not letting his fingertips heal from the last practice.


Randy

[johnepipe]

Thanks for the advice. Interesting...his home setup includes a 300 watt bass, but for jamming, he takes a 65 watt amp with him. This seems to be potentially the issue. He is a great young player, with excellent quality basses (Fender Jazz and Lakland 55-01) but I think his next purchase should be a decent amp. His current 65 watt is an Ibanez, and the 300 watt bass is an old Peavey head and 15" Celestion speaker cabinet. Stretching sounds good too. Thanks to all who responded.

[Nick Kay]

There's no way a 65 watt amp will keep up with most teenage bands. That's DEFINITELY the problem. He's thwacking the hell out of his basses to hear himself. Lonnybass definitely hit the nail on the head.

[bleedingfingers]

It's also a good idea to keep your hands dry as in don't do a sink full of dishes or have a shower and then pick up your bass right after and play it for three hours .
This will soften up any callouses you have .
Also avoid hand lotion or creams .

I read an article once about Chet Atkins and he was big on keeping his hands clean and dry .

Some one probably mentioned this already but are his basses set up properly with low to medium action so he's not chewing his hand up ?

regards B.

[megadan]

It happens. To everyone.
Three things:
1) keep playing - you will callous
2) play with a pick
3) After many years your muscles will learn the exact amount of force to apply in order to make the sound you want, without damaging your hands. You generally must go through a few years of pain, though. It's worth it in the end.

[Kevinmach]

It's also a good idea to keep your hands dry as in don't do a sink full of dishes or have a shower and then pick up your bass right after and play it for three hours .

This is actually a minor point, but a good one. Make sure your hands are dry, otherwise it will definitely tear through your callous.

If it were wrist or finger joint pain, it might call for a little more caution, but if it's just his finger tips- while he can try not pressing as hard- it's fairly normal.

I have built up some pretty good callouses from playing to the point that my fingers forever feel like they were just dipped in candle wax, and even with that being said, if I play for more than an hour or two, my fingers are guaranteed to be a little tender the next day. And though I don't typically break down in tears, there are still days where it's probably best for me to take a day off. (rarely is there a day anymore where they are so sore that I *can't* play, but it still occasionally happens)

As been said, a lighter gauge string will help, as will a bass with good action- but as it sounds like he is pretty passionate about playing, they will probably still hurt a bit form time to time, until the callouses are well formed.

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by megadan

It happens. To everyone.
Three things:
1) keep playing - you will callous
2) play with a pick
3) After many years your muscles will learn the exact amount of force to apply in order to make the sound you want, without damaging your hands. You generally must go through a few years of pain, though. It's worth it in the end.

Respectfully...and without trying to start a fight -

For the good of your son, please do not listen to this kind of advice. Listen to mine.

Lonnybass

[megadan]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

Respectfully...and without trying to start a fight -

For the good of your son, please do not listen to this kind of advice. Listen to mine.

Lonnybass

Hi Lonnybass,

I didn't see your post the first time through. I agree with your advice - there's no need for pain just to play. Turning up the amp and playing with a lighter touch is the solution I would advocate as well.
Unfortunately in the real world this isn't always possible. Even after having played for 6+ years, I still get pain in my fingertips after long sessions of intense fingerstyle playing. I don't generally ignore this pain - I switch to a pick, as I suggested in my 2nd point.

I respectably stand by my 3rd point - after years of practice, sometimes playing too hard, your fingers will learn exactly how much pressure to use to produce effective sounds without pain.

[Kevinmach]

^^Neither one of you is wrong, if I may moderate.

There is definitely a propensity with people online to give advice that's pretty "off the cuff" when it comes to Internet posting- when people don't have all the facts. So Lonny is right in saying to dismiss it out of hand is not the best solution.

On other hand, I have been playing bass for about 1.5 years, but I was a guitarist and piano player for a long time before that (so it's not like I haven't been through pain or discomfort with those instruments or have never had callouses before- the higher strings on a 6 string can cut right through your fingers at times). And yet I am continually amazed at grueling amount of strength and ...well.. pain... that you have to push through to a certain extent, to advance in this instrument. Especially with finger style playing. I would have never believe it if I didn't experience it myself.

So both replies make valid points.

[bass player 48]

Originally Posted by Kevinmach

I have built up some pretty good callouses from playing to the point that my fingers forever feel like they were just dipped in candle wax, and even with that being said, if I play for more than an hour or two, my fingers are guaranteed to be a little tender the next day.

Kevinmach - Out of curiousity, how long have you been playing to achieve the "feel like they are dipped in wax" finger tips you describe? (edit - just saw that above post - I know 1.5 on bass, but how long on guitar before that?)


To the Original Poster -
I think you and LonnyBass have figured out the problem... the kid needs to start working on building up some arm strength that has nothing to do with playing bass - he's been taking the light amp instead of the right amp. It sounds like he already has an amp that's fit to play with a teen age rock drummer - just use that.

[bass player 48]

Hey, one more important thing… EAR PLUGS! If it is an fact an amp thing, and he’s playing hard to be heard and he needs a bigger amp –

We are all skipping over the RIGHT answer to this problem – REALLY, the whole band needs to turn down, including the drummer.

But we all know that ain’t gonna happen, so we’re skipping right over the part where we tell you to have your son have his friends turn down, and we’re going to the next step – a bigger amp.

The point is, no matter what – make sure your son is wearing ear plugs! It sounds like he’s getting into some loud volumes and will eventual do damage without protection.

(you know, every amp over 65 watts should come with a bunch of ear plugs…)

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by Lonnybass

I see some of the advice given here and in other situations regarding playing with pain and it makes me CRINGE. While there is some truth to the idea of building up callouses, conditioning etc., there is simply no reason to advise ANYONE to play through pain.

My guess - having taught a number of young students and having been one myself a long time ago - is that your son is playing WAY to hard to be heard when playing with other musicians. Probably because he is playing through a beginner/bedroom amp. We've all owned them...they're great at letting you hear yourself at home...but get out into the real world with a bunch of guitar amps cranked to 10 and all of a sudden kids are digging in and playing as hard as they possibly can simply to be heard above the din. It's a conundrum for younger players , but not having wattage and EQ flexibility to be heard in a mix can really lead to problems.

You'd be surprised how much happier your son would be if he could play at louder volumes but with a lighter touch - there's NO reason he should be playing with pain that would drive him to tears. I learned this lesson a long time ago...let the amp do all the work and I'd barely need to touch the strings to be able to play 4 hour sets without thinking twice about it.

I'd also recommend your son learn to stretch before and after he plays, so that his hands are nice and loose and has good circulation. This is important. But again, there's no substitute for a good quality setup that will allow your son to hear himself without having to play as hard as he possibly can just to hear himself, kill his wrists and fingers, and potentially develop tendonitis or, heaven forbid, carpal tunnel. I'd also recommend you find your son a good teacher who can take a good look at his technique and style and potentially make some recommendations of how he can improve.

Also of note - I respect the opinions of all Talkbass'ers but PLEASE consider the expertise level of people you are getting advice from in this thread. Ergonomics and repetitive motion problems are a serious concern for musicians and need to be dealt with carefully.

Lonnybass

+1 I've been playing for 41 years, and what Lonnybass says rings true to my ears. When you spoke to your son's bass teacher, what did he recommend?

If your son elevates or tilts his cab toward his ears, he may be better able to hear himself without having to pluck so darned hard - BUT he must also protect his hearing at all cost!

He might also want to review his EQ; if he's boosting the low frequencies too much, he will have trouble hearing himself clearly (and pluck harder as a result), and most of his amp's power will be consumed trying to reproduce boosted low notes. Smiley-face EQ (bass and treble boosted, midrange cut) seems to be very popular with youngsters these days, but it may not be the best choice when using an underpowered amp.

Switching to low-tension flatwounds might also help.