Pains in left arm because of overplaying?

[Frohman]

Hey, I've been on the bass for little over 2 years now. I've had a great deal of progress over the time I've been playing and have with time, effort, musical maturing and a lot of practice become an above average player.

Recently though, I've seen my left hand technique wither slowly. I had no idea why, but for some reason everything started to get real heavy and my stamina was completely gone. This problem emerged after changing my technique slightly, which at first proved to be a great advantage. My teacher told me to set my thumb horisontally on the back of the neck, to get a good curve on the fingers, increasing my reach and ableing to play with my fingertips for increased speed and accuracy.

For a while this worked way better than expected, up until the last two month or so. I saw that for some reason my skills just started to fade away, and everything became a drag. My left arm is now fatiguing over the simplest of bass lines, and I'm seriously worried. Feeling my lower arm and gripping muscles, I can feel that it's very tense and has a lower pain treshold. My best guess is an overworked muscle, but I can't be sure.

The pain is not critical, but as I said: Playing bass is a drag right now, but I can't stop completely because of a working band.

Anyone with any experience to what I do next? Is it tendonitis in the making? Should I go see a doctor? Stretching excercises? Anything, really! Please help.

[john grey]

This subject comes up periodically. I have a feeling that the strap is not adjusted for a natural movement. Test strap or neck height (even if it doesn't looks slick; it will save you from needless annoyance).

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Frohman

Hey, I've been on the bass for little over 2 years now. I've had a great deal of progress over the time I've been playing and have with time, effort, musical maturing and a lot of practice become an above average player.

Recently though, I've seen my left hand technique wither slowly. I had no idea why, but for some reason everything started to get real heavy and my stamina was completely gone. This problem emerged after changing my technique slightly, which at first proved to be a great advantage. My teacher told me to set my thumb horisontally on the back of the neck, to get a good curve on the fingers, increasing my reach and ableing to play with my fingertips for increased speed and accuracy.

For a while this worked way better than expected, up until the last two month or so. I saw that for some reason my skills just started to fade away, and everything became a drag. My left arm is now fatiguing over the simplest of bass lines, and I'm seriously worried. Feeling my lower arm and gripping muscles, I can feel that it's very tense and has a lower pain treshold. My best guess is an overworked muscle, but I can't be sure.

The pain is not critical, but as I said: Playing bass is a drag right now, but I can't stop completely because of a working band.

Anyone with any experience to what I do next? Is it tendonitis in the making? Should I go see a doctor? Stretching excercises? Anything, really! Please help.

Where is the pain- wrist, elbow, bicep, forearm (exactly where), ...? Is your wrist bent, or straight? It's best if it's close to straight. How do you hold your head? That can cause a lot of problems, too. You should see a doctor, but tell him that you play bass and if possible, take your bass with you so the Dr can see what you're doing.

[HaVIC5]

I hope this video helps.

Developing Safe Left Hand Technique for Bass Guitar - YouTube

[MarkA]

I am not a medical professional. Nor am I a telepath, able to put my mind in your body from across the miles and grok what's going on with it. That said, your post throws up all kinds of red flags:

• reduced strength and endurance
• reduced facility
• sensitivity
• been going on for two months

If it is simply a case of tired muscles, fatigued and sore from being asked to do too much, the duration suggests that you're in or entering a phase of chronic overtraining, and need to back off to let things recover. However, what you say is also consistent with the onset of any of a number of kinds of repetitive strain injury, with possible temporary or lasting trauma to nerves and connective tissue.

Don't freak out. Again, I'm not a doctor, and I'm not there, but I want you to take this seriously, and not **** about.

Toward the end of my senior year of high school, going into my freshman year of college, I dramatically increased the amount of time I spent practicing both doublebass and electric bass. On top of that I was under a lot of stress at the time and my electric bass technique was built upon a crap ergonomic foundation acquired in a few lessons with a teacher I can't help but harbor a certain resentment toward, still. My hands started to feel... just slightly funny sometimes. Then weak, tired, slow, sore, sensitive. I'd never heard of tendonitis or carpal tunnel syndrome or any of the related maladies and just figured I was tired/sore/getting stronger. I was of a "push through it" mentality, and I did. I ended up ****ing my hands up royally and unable to play so much as Mary Had a Little Lamb for more than a year. When I was able to start playing again, it was baby steps, baby steps, lots of setbacks, frustration, baby steps. I mean over years. I also had to completely re-think my technique, more than once.

Again, the purpose of this isn't to terrify you. I don't want to be like the drug-addicted (but now reformed) inmate trotted out by police departments and high school guidance counselors to scare kids straight before "this happens to you!" Odds of "it" happening to you -- or of you being as clueless/foolish/stubborn as I was -- are slim. And I did make a friggin' exemplary recovery, if I do say so myself. I make my living with my hands now, and I use them constantly. I also do a good amount of playing on a variety of instruments. I'm about as quick as I ever was, my hands are strong, and my endurance is good. But it took a long time and a lot of work to get here, and I am still not 100% free of it. Rarely -- but sometimes -- if I don't warm up on a cold day, or dive right into strenuous playing, or have a particularly demanding week, some of the old symptoms can flare up again. I usually know how to manage them now, and I'm usually back to normal within a day or three, but it's still a little scary every time.

My non-medical, totally amateur advice to you:

1) Back off on the amount you're practicing 'til you figure this out. I wouldn't stop completely -- I've found, personally, that this is usually counterproductive physically as well as demoralizing. Total inactivity just makes me more prone to injure myself.

2) Examine your technique carefully, and don't be afraid to make changes. I haven't watched more than the first half minute of the above linked vid yet, but it mentions a "neutral" position as an ideal, and I am a big believer in that. If your tendons are like ropes, you want to spend as little time pulling them around sharp corners as possible.

3) How you do something matters as much as what you're doing. If your positioning is picture perfect, but you're tense and stiff, it's no good. Neither healthy nor efficient.

4) Everything's connected. Being short on sleep/dehydrated/stressed out/out of shape/eating a crap diet can all make you more prone to getting hurt.

5) Everyone's different. The way Marcus Miller puts his right hand and forearm when playing fingerstyle would cripple me. Some people live to 100 on bacon and cigarettes. Some don't.

6) Your body needs time to adapt to technique changes. When making a big change, cut your practice time by 1/3 to 1/2, then build back up slowly, over the course of several weeks at least.

7) Listen to your body.

That was long. Probably a little dramatic. It's a hot button topic with me. I think I make a post like this about once a year, somewhere.

Finally, if you think you might've hurt something, it's a good idea to get checked out. Not all docs, however, have a lot of empathy for/understanding of athletic pursuits (in this case, and in this respect, that's what I'd consider bass playing) or have much experience treating their related ailments except by medicating. If a doc simply prescribes ibuprofen and tells you to stop playing bass, you'll want to look elsewhere.

IMO, IME, YMMV, etc. and la-di-da.

[MarkA]

Watched the vid through. While I might find one or two minor quibbles, personally, I found his basic approach sound. Also, if you watch his other vids, the guy seems himself to play with a pretty relaxed, efficient technique.

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Where is the pain- wrist, elbow, bicep, forearm (exactly where), ...? Is your wrist bent, or straight? It's best if it's close to straight. How do you hold your head? That can cause a lot of problems, too. You should see a doctor, but tell him that you play bass and if possible, take your bass with you so the Dr can see what you're doing.

Good advice, if you're seeing a doc or a physical therapist. Plus, bringing your axe into the doctor's office automatically makes you cooler.

[miltslackford]

That video is good. I tend to simplify everything to a few principles, one of which is that your arm should be doing most of the work. Not the fingers and hand. Sometimes people have their hands in the right place, but the actual way they're applying pressure is wrong, despite the fact that everything looks ok superficially.

I got around this at first by taking my thumb off the back of the neck and practicing scales. This trained my muscles to actually use arm strength and finger positioning instead of hand grip. When I put the thumb back the muscles had retrained.

I have had some really positive effects on posture from doing yoga. I would really recommend it. Also a bit of weight training can do wonders for balancing things out, as long as you do it wisely and follow the advice of a trainer so you do it evenly.

Personally, I've had the best results for eliminating pain and postural problems from yoga and weight training. When I weight train especially, my guitar related shoulder and neck pains disappear.

People like doctors and therapists can do a good job but the fact is if you're going away and doing a completely unbalanced activity like playing bass for extended periods of time, they cannot do very much to protect you from the effects it will have on your body. Playing any sort of guitar is essentially NOT ergonomic and depending on the size and shape of your body it will have larger or greater unbalancing effects over time. (For example if you have very wide shoulders then it will have less of an effect since there is less need to over extend the right shoulder). In my opinion, the best way to deal with this is to regularly do some other form of exercise which is well balanced, and preferably deals with larger loads over greater ranges of motion.

(BTW even though I've said playing guitar is not ergonomic, you should still try to make it as ergonomic as possible!)

I'm not sure what your current exercise situation is, but I've seen lots of people's repetitive strain injuries get better once they become more active.

Good luck!

[Frohman]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Where is the pain- wrist, elbow, bicep, forearm (exactly where), ...? Is your wrist bent, or straight? It's best if it's close to straight. How do you hold your head? That can cause a lot of problems, too. You should see a doctor, but tell him that you play bass and if possible, take your bass with you so the Dr can see what you're doing.

Wrist is straight. Pain comes from the forearm, and the gripping muscle. Thanks for great advice here, btw.

[jallenbass]

Go see a neurologist. IME muscle weakness has had its roots in nerve trouble.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

Go see a neurologist. IME muscle weakness has had its roots in nerve trouble.

So true especially if it comes on for no reason (injury, illness, diet, fatiuge etc). See a doctor, or similar medical professional and get a proper diagnosis. Bass playing may show or highlight a exsisting or under lying problem, it may not be the root cause.
Like someone that keeps losing their breath because the like playing football, all the training and execise will make no difference if they are asmatic, that is the root of the problem, not the football.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by MarkA

Watched the vid through. While I might find one or two minor quibbles, personally, I found his basic approach sound. Also, if you watch his other vids, the guy seems himself to play with a pretty relaxed, efficient technique.




Good advice, if you're seeing a doc or a physical therapist. Plus, bringing your axe into the doctor's office automatically makes you cooler.

Since I'm the guy in question, I'm just curious what your minor quibbles are? I'm constantly adjusting my technique and the way that I explain my technique, so any criticism is more than welcome.

[MarkA]

Sorry, I missed this the first time.

I had some reservations about the recommendation to "point the thumb back toward the nut" (don't recall your exact wording right now), but I am reexamining them along with your vid. I don't believe in a thumb firmly planted in a fixed spot opposite your second finger, and I do believe that the thumb can float/move about at times and that it rarely needs to apply much, if any, counterpressure to the fingers. I think we are in agreement that far, at least. Since talking about technique on the internet is dicey and it's easy to give an inaccurate impression, I'll hold off on being more specific until I've played around with things a little more...

Meanwhile, kudos to you for putting together a well-thought out video that attempts to address a healthy, efficient left hand technique with the prevention of RSI in mind.

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Since I'm the guy in question, I'm just curious what your minor quibbles are? I'm constantly adjusting my technique and the way that I explain my technique, so any criticism is more than welcome.

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by MarkA

I don't believe in a thumb firmly planted in a fixed spot opposite your second finger, and I do believe that the thumb can float/move about at times and that it rarely needs to apply much, if any, counterpressure to the fingers.

One way I check my hand technique and especially to keep that thumb from being too tight is I see if I can fret the notes even if I lift my thumb off the back of the neck. In my opinion the thumb should glide and barely touch the neck, just enough to support the fingers. I wouldn't play like a whole song with the thumb off the neck, but if I find myself getting fatigued I do a few short runs like that to get my hand to relax. Firmly planting the thumb is just flat-out impossible on a bass, and definitely will hurt your hand in the long term.

[Groove Doctor]

As a health professional, yes you need to have that looked at - I cannot give specific advice, but I can say that the advice given above is sound.

Are you still in Norway? Contact these groups to find someone nearby that treats musicians. Affordable treatment can be found at the universities where these are taught.

An Osteopath
(Osteopathy is fairly new in Norway, but it was established in USA, England and Australia over 100 years ago).
www.osteopati.org


Otherwise a physiotherapist
www.fysio.no/

Or a Chiropractor
www.kiropraktikk.no/

Good luck!

[Fergie Fulton]

Ahhhh our friend the thumb and his mis-concieved use in playing bass. Let me start with the tension problems piano and keyboard players have with a tight grip on the instrument. Well there are none because they do not hold their instrument, their hands are free to allow the fingers to move, in fact the thumb does not support the fingers in anyway. Other musical instruments are the same in that the thumb does not support the fingers.

So why does it have to be or does it seem to be desirable when playing bass?

Think about it, the bass is held on a strap so support is not needed, so therefore no need to hold the bass in any shape way or form......but we do.......why?......because we can, not because we should.

Because the double bass needed support, and techniques we see today came from that it is assumed we need to hold the bass....it may even look like we hold the bass, but in fact the thumb is resting on the neck, not holding it, but to look at it, it appears to be holding. From this presumtion a player will hold and in doing so activate the pinch reflex we have that activates the thumb process of it holding and opposing the fingers with pressure being applied to hold and manipulate whatever is being held in the fingers. As said we do not hold but rest the fingers on the neck, but because of the design of the bass, holding seems desirable because the thumb can form the pinch reflex....which it cannot do on say the piano.

In golfing circles for example a short or long thumb can give vast variations on a grip, which is a strange term because not all fingers are used in holding the club and of course grip pressure is the un-seen enemy there. Reality of a good golf hold is about 6 out of the 10 fingers are used, and the word hold is a better description rather than grip because grip implies tight.

For me i am a big believer in not placing any real importance on thumb position, let it be and let it go where it feels it needs to go in order to keep out of the fingers way. It is the fingers that press down on the neck, the push the string to the fret, so the playing technique for any thumb behind the neck is a back stop... not a holding role. Because in piano playing the floor the piano sits on is the back stop....no matter how hard the player pushes the keys the piano will not move, but a bass can and will sway around the body. Our body is the back stop to the bass body, but that creates a pivot for the neck to move the further away our hand gets from the body. In a proper technique the fingers push against the strings the thumb is just there as a back stop.
So if it points along the neck rather than straight up the neck cannot truly be held using a pinch refex so the thumb does not apply pressure, but allows the fingers to push in to it and the thumb is the backstop. This means big muscles deep in the forearms are used to more prominance, rather the the little muscles in the hand and thumb, to create the movement of the fingers. Now any tiredness or pain ( felt as a burning sensation in the forearms, not the hand) is natural because the correct muscle groups are being used to control the fingers. Because the groups are bigger and stronger in the forearm and closer to the attachments, the movement is better and more efficient in the fingers. All great pianists have delicate looking slim hands but big forearms....as should all good bass players, but strong, muscular hands for power or grip are a result of developing the pinch reflex for stability...to hold on to things securely, to stop movement.....not something ever ever needed in a fretting hand.

For me Adams video is spot on in what needs to be said, simple, un-complicated and to the point on this matter. Yes it could maybe presented different, but its info is spot on.

[Ronbassman]

You should always stretch your arms, forearms, hands, and fingers before, during, and after playing. Also, you should do warm-up exercises, especially when playing a lot of scales and fast stuff.

[conqr]

I always make a conscious effort to use as little fretting pressure as possible - overdid it for so many years it's taking a while to stick. The benefits of a 'just enough' touch are wide ranging, from reduced fatigue to greater speed - in both hands actually.

[rilindmc]

get a massage and stretch before you play. / or \ is finger and ||| is neck. \|||/ that is a good stech for both hands it is also good if you play piano. take a break from playing if you need to.

[DeadHeadSF]

Well said overall. In particular:

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

For me i am a big believer in not placing any real importance on thumb position, let it be and let it go where it feels it needs to go in order to keep out of the fingers way. It is the fingers that press down on the neck, the push the string to the fret, so the playing technique for any thumb behind the neck is a back stop... not a holding role.

I was able to get out of the "death grip" habit by reminding myself that the weight of the arm is sufficient; there is no need to grip the neck at all. My fretting-hand thumb moves very freely now, often not even touching the neck. Loosening the thumb helped a great deal in increasing speed - it even helped with playing barre chords on a guitar.

As for the picking-hand thumb, I keep it floating most of the time (well, "semi-floating" as I use it to mute the low strings), but occasionally anchor it on a string, etc... when I really need stability. This is also something I likely picked up from playing a lot of fingerstyle and classical guitar, and it improved my bass playing substantially.

It's amazing how much our thumb can throw off the ergonomics of an instrument that is already ergonomically poor.

[Stilettoprefer]

I have been playing for 2 and a half years and have been diagnosed with medial carpal(I forgot the rest of the name). Pretty much all of the muscles in my forearm locked up and it was extremely painful to play for more than 5 minutes. I am going to a hand specialist and after 2 visits and learning the massaging techniques, I'm back up to playing for hours without pain (except upright bass).

You MUST get in to a doctor SOON!!! Don't try to just tough it out, I did the first time it came up and it just came back much worse and at a really bad time. Don't worry yourself with searching on the Internet, go to a professional to kill the pain and get messaging techniques. Then fix the initial problem(s) with your playing.