Phalanges

[Gonz]

Hello everybody on the technique forum, its my first time posting here and i come with a small question i wasn't able to find already answered.

I've been playing for approximately 5 years, but I stopped taking classes and lessons after the second or third year of playing because i needed to focus on my studies and since then my playing has been deteriorating. A lot of bad habits that i used to have when i started playing are slowly starting to get worse and i think I've been dragging a really bad one without noticing.

When i play fingerstyle, I apply almost all the force in my index and middle finger at the first phalanges (the bones closer to the palm) and almost no force in the last phalanges (the bones closer to the tip) when plucking the strings. This results in the last phalanges being defeated by the pressure i apply to the string, bending the tip of my fingers back (instead of clawing the tips).

Is this really a bad habit? I'm asking this because i want to improve my bass playing and i don't know what other kind of problems this could bring, and since its a habit I've been dragging for five years its going to be tough breaking it.

Any recommendations or opinions on the issue I'm presenting?

If i decided to "re-learn" my right hand technique and shape my plucking fingers into a a stronger "claw" position, what kind of change in my sound could i expect?

Thanks for your attention.

[iiipopes]

Yes, it is a bad habit. Relearn to pluck conventionally. Since it isn't just picking it back up, but having to undo a bad habit, remedial lessons may be in order. Change in sound: the ability to alter dynamic and tone more readily, along with more precision and timing.

[Fergie Fulton]

http://www.joint-pain-expert.net/finger-anatomy.html

You have a bad technique developing, what you need is the opposite of what you are describing. The motion is in the mid to top of the fingers ( middle and distal phalanx or 1st and 2nd phalanges), with the swing of the fingers from the PIP joint.
In swinging the fingers from the PIP joints the other joints move in support of any movement. In swinging from other joints you put pressure on them as there is no support.
Notice how the flexior and extensor tendons run over the MP joint and actually attach to the the middle phalanx, then again the over the DIP joint. This is a very simple view but it shows how the finger move and where best to action movement. Joints like the MP and the DIP move in line because of the movement of the Proximal Phalanx is a following movement.
Now again this is a simple overview, there are many other factors involved, and this view does not show the complexity of arrangements, but at its simplest this is how fingers work.

The tendons and muscles for this movement originate in the forearm so not shown. This does not include any nerve or blood vessel interaction, joint construction, banding, skin or nail formation, nor does it even come close to the understanding of the hand as a unit, but it does show where the best finger movement can come from.

All this information needs to be put in context to a player as it is not required to play, so here is a clip explaining what all that means to a bass technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeodP4P0ivM

[Gonz]

Thanks for the advice fergie, i found that video very useful.

Is there any sort of exercise you would recommend to correct the bad habit? Ive been trying doing quadraphonics very slowly, focusing on the tips of my fingers and the pip joints, and trying to hit the string so that it moves parallel to the fingerboard, but the mp joint is still doing a big deal of work, should i try to minimize that? applying the force completely with the pip joint and leaving the mp joint as static as possible?

Thanks for your attention.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Gonz

Thanks for the advice fergie, i found that video very useful.

Is there any sort of exercise you would recommend to correct the bad habit? Ive been trying doing quadraphonics very slowly, focusing on the tips of my fingers and the pip joints, and trying to hit the string so that it moves parallel to the fingerboard, but the mp joint is still doing a big deal of work, should i try to minimize that? applying the force completely with the pip joint and leaving the mp joint as static as possible?

Thanks for your attention.

There are 3 good exercises to target hands and finger, the resulting effort will be felt in the forearms. This is because the muscle groups that control this movement are located there.

Now the important thing i will mention is these exercises are about repetition in a set time. This builds dexterity and speed. To do the exercises for longer till the hand tires completely, will develop power, in other words a grip.
The maximum time is 15 secs. and the object is to increase the amount of repetition in 15 secs. So in other words increase the speed, reaction and dexterity.

Learn the 3 exercises slowly at first to make sure you do the correct and can feel what needs to happen. All exercises are done palm facing down.

In the link there is video of a standard forearm stretch. Learn it and use it before and after the exercises. Once at the end of all three is good, but if you need to use them in between

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzSBG...e=more_related

Warm up your hands with some rubbing and stretches (use the one in the video) and do each hand one at a time. When you get used to it do both and match the repetitions of each together. Reason for this, one hand will better than the other because of hand dominance and this again lets you see how you improve. For finger players the matching of speed is obvious.

1/ Hold the fingers straight and closed together and the thumb touching the the side of the forefinger. Keeping the thumb next to the forefinger, fully open and spread the finger only and close them back. The thumb stay next to the forefinger though out this, the thumb has nothing to do with this exercise.
So repeat this as fast as you can and count how may repetitions you do.

2/ Hold the fingers straight and closed together, thumb spread away. Now bend all the fingers from the PIP joint only, keep the hand straight. Then return them back to straight again.
Again repeat this as fast as you can and count how many repetitions you do.

3/ With the hand straight and all the fingers bend from the PIP joint (the position you bent them to in the previous exercise). Now bend from the MP joint so the the fingertips touch the palm and return them to the starting position (hand straight and all the fingers bend from the PIP joint )
again repeat this as fast as you can and count how many repetition you do.

The go back to no. 1 and repeat all three again.

If you do these three correct you will feel any tiredness in your forearms. That is why the stretch you do is a forearm stretch. Depending on starting fitness of the hands, most players that need help in this area should double the amount of repetitions in a matter of weeks.
I must stress do not over do these exercises thinking that more will bring quicker or better results, more will change the nature of the exercise into developing a grip, the two sets of the three exercises is enough.

[xxfaux_punkxx]

hmm....

i don't know the anatomy of all this but I do have a finger question.

as I started practicing tonight my middle knuckle started hurting.... horribly bad. I had to stop and switch to a pick. I've never had this problem before or in my index finger (I play fingerstyle with just my index and middle fingers). It was soley my middle finger that was bothering me.

could this be because I've been using a pick soley for the past week or so? and the change from pick to fingers caused this?


I play finger style by alternating my index and middle fingers. I keep my wrist straight when i play. I extend my finger at the middle knuckle (bringing the string about a 1/3 of the way up my finger print) then role my finger tip over the string and curl them into my palm. I use my thumb to mute (resting it on the string above the one I'm playing)

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by xxfaux_punkxx

hmm....

i don't know the anatomy of all this but I do have a finger question.

as I started practicing tonight my middle knuckle started hurting.... horribly bad. I had to stop and switch to a pick. I've never had this problem before or in my index finger (I play fingerstyle with just my index and middle fingers). It was soley my middle finger that was bothering me.

could this be because I've been using a pick soley for the past week or so? and the change from pick to fingers caused this?


I play finger style by alternating my index and middle fingers. I keep my wrist straight when i play. I extend my finger at the middle knuckle (bringing the string about a 1/3 of the way up my finger print) then role my finger tip over the string and curl them into my palm. I use my thumb to mute (resting it on the string above the one I'm playing)

The pain is to make you stop. Ignore that at your risk of injury.

I take i you use your hands other than for playing bass, so you need to look at everything you have done in the last week or so. Bass playing is just part of your hand use not all of it, and since our hands lead us in many day to day tasks injury is common. Some of those injuries we shake off, other we don't.
Finger joints are complicated things so go and see a doctor, physio, or osteopath.
"Horrible pain" is not something you should ignore or tolerate.

[kr0n]

I used to have that with just my ring finger. I just strengthened my weakest fingers with playing only with them. Going over scales etc until they felt tired, then switching to normal style. Eventually they wouldn't collapse anymore. This was during my early days tho so it was quick

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

There are 3 good exercises to target hands and finger, the resulting effort will be felt in the forearms. This is because the muscle groups that control this movement are located there.

Now the important thing i will mention is these exercises are about repetition in a set time. This builds dexterity and speed. To do the exercises for longer till the hand tires completely, will develop power, in other words a grip.
The maximum time is 15 secs. and the object is to increase the amount of repetition in 15 secs. So in other words increase the speed, reaction and dexterity.

Learn the 3 exercises slowly at first to make sure you do the correct and can feel what needs to happen. All exercises are done palm facing down.

In the link there is video of a standard forearm stretch. Learn it and use it before and after the exercises. Once at the end of all three is good, but if you need to use them in between

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzSBG...e=more_related

Warm up your hands with some rubbing and stretches (use the one in the video) and do each hand one at a time. When you get used to it do both and match the repetitions of each together. Reason for this, one hand will better than the other because of hand dominance and this again lets you see how you improve. For finger players the matching of speed is obvious.

1/ Hold the fingers straight and closed together and the thumb touching the the side of the forefinger. Keeping the thumb next to the forefinger, fully open and spread the finger only and close them back. The thumb stay next to the forefinger though out this, the thumb has nothing to do with this exercise.
So repeat this as fast as you can and count how may repetitions you do.

2/ Hold the fingers straight and closed together, thumb spread away. Now bend all the fingers from the PIP joint only, keep the hand straight. Then return them back to straight again.
Again repeat this as fast as you can and count how many repetitions you do.

3/ With the hand straight and all the fingers bend from the PIP joint (the position you bent them to in the previous exercise). Now bend from the MP joint so the the fingertips touch the palm and return them to the starting position (hand straight and all the fingers bend from the PIP joint )
again repeat this as fast as you can and count how many repetition you do.

The go back to no. 1 and repeat all three again.

If you do these three correct you will feel any tiredness in your forearms. That is why the stretch you do is a forearm stretch. Depending on starting fitness of the hands, most players that need help in this area should double the amount of repetitions in a matter of weeks.
I must stress do not over do these exercises thinking that more will bring quicker or better results, more will change the nature of the exercise into developing a grip, the two sets of the three exercises is enough.

Very good info Fergie, and also covering a blank spot in my health pages: http://chriskeuken.nl/health.html.
Hope you won't mind me adressing this along these lines.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Very good info Fergie, and also covering a blank spot in my health pages: http://chriskeuken.nl/health.html.
Hope you won't mind me adressing this along these lines.

No probs Chris, if you want to discuss any points drop me a PM or an e-mail. This can be a tricky subject to discuss on line due to the thinking of some player that it does not apply to, reading info and applying it to their playing situation un-necessarily.