PHRASING!!!!

efajardo90 · #1 02-04-2011, 03:08 PM

Good afternoon everyone!
I am studying jazz.. I think i can handle all the scale information, and "knowing the correct" note to play in an standard. The problem I have encountered is my phrasing! it basically sucks..

PLEASE! HELP! post phrasing exercises!! or tell me any advice about this!! what technical things can help me? what things have helped you!? thanks...

groooooove · #2 02-04-2011, 03:16 PM

i never really had a particular issue, but if i have a student that i want to study the idea of phrasing (usually due to their over-playing) there are two things that come to mind.

1. learning to play DB with a bow. it just helps understanding the idea of phrasing, because unlike our plucked electric basses, DB players are at all times conscious of phrasing, due to the nature of the bow.

2. breathe with the music your playing. i cant stress it enough. sing along with your lines. where the breathes need to happen is where you need to leave space. practice playing single phrases over ii - V - I motions.

"phrasing" is sort of a vague term in a way- what part of it is throwing you off? are you feeling like your solos are turning into one long phrase instead of a bunch of smaller ones? the more you describe the issue the more we can discuss what will help.

efajardo90 · #3 02-04-2011, 03:34 PM

the problem i feel is that i don`t know how to make emphasis on different notes of the phrase.. they sound the same, i have tried to pluck harder some notes, but it doesnt sound natural... things like hammer ons and pull offs could certainly help me. the problem is that i dont know how to use them. That's why i ask for exercises.. get me?

groooooove · #4 02-04-2011, 03:35 PM

is your normal playing already fairly hard? perhaps backing off overall will allow more room for dynamics.

ba$$player · #5 02-04-2011, 03:42 PM

I dont know jazz(I would love to learn)so this may not apply, but I get all of my ideas from listening to, or learning other people's stuff. I love to take a line that I really love and then try to change it, or to take phrases from that line and put it in a different song, just general experimentation. I love it! Sorry if this doesnt apply to what you are asking but it helps to grow as a player, especially when writing my own lines.

millerfreak · #6 02-04-2011, 03:50 PM

listen to tal wilkenfeld i guess.. she's a good one for phrasing.

Skitch it! · #7 02-04-2011, 03:57 PM

Fretless players I look to more for phrasing, Jaco, Willis et al. Purely because it seems to be an inherent thing with the vib, slides, gliss........Lot's of fretted players too, but I somehow gravitate to the fretless cats.

Chrispurchase · #8 02-04-2011, 09:26 PM

Transcribe some solo's and learn to sing what your playing.

Stilettoprefer · #9 02-04-2011, 11:08 PM

Pay attention to accents and dynamics if you're reading a written line. If it's a chord progression, get a little louder as you go up in pitch and quieter as you go down in pitch but mostly pay attention to the bands dynamics and match them!!!!!! If you're playing under a soloist then make sure to use a lot of roots, 7's and 5's and play fairly staccato unless it's a ballad where legato accents are a better fit.

And NEVER use a pick for jazz. I've seen guys get yelled at by conductors for it and when I'm teaching someone I strongly push towards not using a pic for any style except metal.

Dave-Action-Fig · #10 02-13-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stilettoprefer

And NEVER use a pick for jazz. I've seen guys get yelled at by conductors for it and when I'm teaching someone I strongly push towards not using a pic for any style except metal.

IDIOT! This makes me so mad! You actually teach this to people?!

bongomania · #11 02-13-2011, 01:38 PM

Tell that pick story to Carol Kaye.

Regarding phrasing, I recommend listening to great singers, especially crooners from the jazz and Rat Pack eras, and most especially Cubans. They are masters of phrasing, and their rhythmic and dynamic choices translate really well to bass.

FretlessMainly · #12 02-13-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by efajardo90

the problem i feel is that i don`t know how to make emphasis on different notes of the phrase.. they sound the same, i have tried to pluck harder some notes, but it doesnt sound natural... things like hammer ons and pull offs could certainly help me. the problem is that i dont know how to use them. That's why i ask for exercises.. get me?

Have a look at this thread:

Hammerons/Pulloffs/Slides - exercises and/or books?

I posted some ideas about hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides. Make sure you read all the way through it as I was typing off the top of my head and I clarified the exercise in later posts at the end. This should really help to add texture and phrasing to your style.

HaVIC5 · #13 03-05-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stilettoprefer

Pay attention to accents and dynamics if you're reading a written line. If it's a chord progression, get a little louder as you go up in pitch and quieter as you go down in pitch but mostly pay attention to the bands dynamics and match them!!!!!! If you're playing under a soloist then make sure to use a lot of roots, 7's and 5's and play fairly staccato unless it's a ballad where legato accents are a better fit.

And NEVER use a pick for jazz. I've seen guys get yelled at by conductors for it and when I'm teaching someone I strongly push towards not using a pic for any style except metal.

Tell that to Steve Swallow, easily the most respected electric bassist in straight-ahead jazz today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSarLL7Qb5g

JTE · #14 03-05-2011, 12:40 PM

Phrasing is best learned by listening to and copping the exact nuances of great phrasers. So, listen to Frank Sinatra, Duane Allman, Roy Eldridge, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, and Chaka Kahn. Listen to how they let a note linger here, and attack it a bit harder there, how they float above the rhythm or nest inside it at different times, etc.

John

Russell L · #15 03-06-2011, 06:17 AM

[First of all, I do not approve of name-calling on here. I just joined this site and will not continue here if I keep seeing this kind of behavior (where is a moderator, isn't that against the rules?). Everyone has their own opinion and has the right to say it without derision.]

About phrasing, I think that the bass part (other than a solo) pretty much goes along with the song. Any song has phrasing. That is, things like resolving back to the tonic chord after a progression, or going from verse to chorus, stuff like that. Then, there are kicks, rests, dynamics, and all manner of ways in which the song breathes. Phrasing is most noticeable in solos, though (listen to BB King). I think what is being referred to here as phrasing is actually more akin to articulation. Articulation has to do with how notes are played. Dynamics is part of it, markings such as "legato" or "staccato" are part of it, too. Also stroke markings for up and down. While it is a well-known fact that the "groove" is where it's at while playing, nothing will make the groove feel better than good articulation.

I have found that if I play with a light touch I can articulate better. I mostly play two-finger style on my picking hand, playing with a pick only once in awhile (and there's nothing wrong with that, it has it's place). But, to use the pick for reference here, when I play guitar I can articulate best with a light touch. Consider this, as an exercize, playing with a wide stroke as if you're gonna hit the string hard, except that when you go by you only hit it softly. I've seen drummers with good wrists do that to a cymbal. It's a bit trickier to get that feeling fingerpicking, though. If I just start a simple groove and play for about ten minutes non-stop on it, after awhile I begin to get in sync and can feel articulation. I think articulation is the single-most important thing any musician can learn to do well. Without it music sounds drab.

Find a groove, lay in it for a bit until you're in sync, and then try to alter it some as you go along, hitting notes differently, but staying within the groove's feel. If this isn't what you're looking for, well, maybe it's something in addition that will help in some other way.

Cheers.

Groove Doctor · #16 03-14-2011, 04:08 PM

"And NEVER use a pick for jazz. I've seen guys get yelled at by conductors for it and when I'm teaching someone I strongly push towards not using a pic for any style except metal."

I half a agree and half disagree with this statement. Let me explain:
I played pick when I started playing bass (previously a guitarist) until I was proficient enough with my fingers. There I remained for 21 years.....

UNTIL I discovered a very unique combination which changed my mind: passive P-Bass, Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Flats, using a very light gauge pick (.036-.042), using a lighter touch, and then developing a hugely variable and very dynamic picking technique (the TI JF's are very amenable to this). I have a section of pick with the side of my thumb hit the string together (a little bit like a pinch harmonic on guitar technique-wise, but very different in approach) and can vary the tone considerably by playing with pick:thumb proportions, attack, pick angle, location on the string I strike, muting, etc. Hey, I can even play 100% side of thumb:0% pick whilst still holding the pick!!

I'm not able to pull it off even half as successfully with any other combination. It definitely does not work with metal, struggles with loud rock, but play beautifully with jazz, ballads, pop, light rock, etc - anything where you don't have overpowering drums and multiple distorted guitar live. Try it for 6 months and see if you get similar results.

People are quick to state their opinion, but sometimes leave out important details like gear, which music style they play, their preferred technique, experience, rationale, etc. Sorry if someone jumped the gun and hurt your feelings.

Peace!!

longfinger · #17 03-14-2011, 04:46 PM

take a glance at this book.

Simple and easy to read, and simple and very hard to do. ;-)

Hal Galper - Forward Motion

redname · #18 03-15-2011, 02:36 AM

i'm not sure this will help but phrasing is like talking. I've picked this up during a master's class by allan holdsworth (i think)

1.you'll need to stop between your sentences, in phrasing, you can't just keep playing notes you need to give some space in between your lines.

2. when you talk, there's different speeds, different languages and volume to express yourself. In phrasing, the speed of notes, the scale used (different language) and the volume (dynamics) will change the mood of your solo

BassChuck · #19 03-15-2011, 08:50 AM

Don't just practice basslines and chords. Play melodies, and sing them before you play them on bass. Rhythm may be the most important part of music, but melodies are a close second. Learn to phrase melodies like great singers and instrumentalists and them apply that knowledge to your basslines. Good phrasing is the art of making changes in volume note placement and tone. Listen closely.