Playin' behind, on top, and in front of the groove??

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well I think both you and mingustoo are hearing something in Reggae that is nothing to do with playing behind or ahead of the beat, but rather rhythmic displacement or syncopation - so Aston Barrett is famous for playing a lot of "one drops" where the bass avoids the first beat of the bar entirely.

This gives more space to the overall feel - where you are going wrong specifically is saying that you choose particular beats in the bar, whereas it is about the whole thing - it is the Reggae one-drop and other rhythms that are avoiding one beat or emphasising figures across the bar line which is something completely different.

[Pacman]

Well, Spear, what you've explained is actually dragging on the 3rd and 4th beats. That's not playing behind the beat, that's actually stretching it. Playing behind the beat means that time does not change, just where you play (constistantly) in realation to it.

Let's see if this works.

Let's imagine perfect, metronomic time as this:

__X__ __X__ __X__ __X__

X being where the note is placed. Behind the beat would be like this:

___X_ ___X_ ___X_ ___X_ or even:

____X ____X ____X ____X

The beat doesn't change. Just where you've placed the attack.

What your explanation looks like to me is:

_X_ _X_ ___X___ ___X___

where beats 3 and 4 are actually longer than 1 and 2.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think the confusion is with a bassline where you are avoiding one and holding across the bar - this happens in most Afro Cuban and in some Reggae basslines.

[mingustoo]

to bruce, sixteenths are just smaller donuts---come on, take a bite

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by mingustoo
to bruce, sixteenths are just smaller donuts---come on, take a bite

But just playing straight 16ths is nothing to do with playing ahead of or behind the beat!

That's just sub-dividing.

[wulf]

I think Bruce is right in distinguishing between playing on, ahead or behind the beat and creating rhythmic patterns by playing around with subdivisions (8ths, 16ths, 32nds, etc) and syncopations (eg. not playing on the first subdivision of the bar but waiting until a later subdivision to come in).

You could think of playing around the beat in terms of subdivisions but you've got to go beyond 16ths - even 32nds would be quite a big way of 'stretching the time', and it would make the notation of the tune absolutely horrible to read.

Instead, it's easier to work on it in terms of 'feeling' rather than mathematics. How are you sitting on your chair at the moment? Move forward a bit so that you're sitting on the edge of your seat; now move back so that you're as far back as you can go.

Your bottom will experience a different feeling in each of the positions described above (and anywhere in between) but there's no need for me to use centimetres or inches to describe how far to move forward or back. In fact that would be counter productive as you'll all have different sized seats

Applying that back to playing around with 'time' in a musical context, the beat doesn't change any more than your chair changed. However, by adjusting your position relative to the chair seat, you created a range of feelings. You've slid around on your chair and experienced what I've described - if you don't get this idea of stretching the time, get out a metronome and experience it!

Wulf

[chardin]

Can anyone suggest some rhythm sections and CDs that are behind, on, and ahead of the beat? Rather than use ASCII to explain it, maybe hearing it would be better. I would make some suggestions but I'm trying to figure this out myself.

[sleazylenny]

I think Wulf's example with the nanosecond dots between beats explained it best. Now lets tweak it a bit so it show bass in relation to drums.
K=kick drum, B = bass, quarternote gets the beat

On the beat

K......K......K......K......
B......B......B......B......

Behind the beat
K......K......K......K......
.B......B......B......B......
Note that the basses quarternotes are shifted a fraction of a second AFTER the kick quarternotes. NOT an eighthnote after, nor a sixteenth or 32nd. The bass is playing EVEN quarters at the SAME bpm as the kick drum. Just consistantly a tad later

In front of the beat
.K......K......K......K......
B......B......B......B......
Same thing as with the behind the beat example, Just done slightly before rather than after.

The important thing to remember is that it doesn't mean playing faster or slower, it means playing the same speed and shifting your position slightly in relation to what is considered the established beat.

This is a hellishly difficult skill to master, as it sounds "wrong" to ears trained to think on beat.

Feel free to add corrections,clarifications or downright dismissals if necessary

[bad dog]

I gotta chime in here. I think of the beat as an event that has a beginning, middle and end - kind of shaped like this ....... ^ If you look at it this way it's easier to conceptualize the front, center and back of the beat. Anywhere with-in the beat is considered "in time" as long as the note is consistently placed.

Different styles call for different placement of the note across the beat and create the feel of whatever music you are playing. Your own interpretation of the timeline is a big component of your own personal style. The way you feel and place your notes also determines which musicians you'll naturally be in sync with and have the most effortless relationship with, musically speaking of course. It helps to work with a metronome at slower tempos to develop flexibilty in playing on the front, middle and back of the time to help create subtle rhythmic tensions that build and release. It also enables you to connect with a wider variety of rhythm section players.

I guess some guys to check out would be Ron Carter and Tony Williams from Miles Davis' famous 60's Quintet who really exemplified playing at the front of the beat. Someone who plays very much on the backend of the beat is saxophonist Dexter Gordon.

Last thought - lots of great soloists vary the placement within the same musical phrase to create a sense of push and pull in their solos. It's a great soloing device and well worth checking out regardless of the genre of music being played.

Hope this helps

Tony

[boomerang]

Groove isnt part of english. Go. Play.