Playing bass with half position

[ToshitomoriOh]

I've been trying to practice the following phrase with half position (four fretting fingers for three frets, and never use the ring finger)....cause I've got a small hand. The problem is....I just have no idea how I can play this phrase with half position, or is it even possible to play this phrase with half position in the first phrase. Any advice is appreciated.

[Mushroo]

Two options as I see it:

1. Play the A's and D's as open strings, with your fingers starting in the range of frets 2-4, and it will just fall into place.

2. Play the fingering as written and use slight shifts of your left hand. Being totally comfortable shifting 1 or 2 frets up or down is the secret to playing with relaxed 1-2-4 fingering technique.

(edit) If you go with option 2 then you'll probably want to move the B to the 9th fret of the D string so you just have to move the same pattern up 2 frets from D to E.

[Mushroo]

I just picked up the bass and played it exactly as written using only fingers 1-2-4, no problem. Can you be more clear exactly what specific part of it is giving you difficulties? Try taking your metronome down several clicks, until it is comfortable, and then gradually bring it up to speed.

That being said, always use TAB as a guideline and feel free to come up with fingerings that are comfortable for you. (This is particularly true if you're using some random internet TAB as opposed to a TAB written by a good teacher for educational/instructional purposes.)

[bloobass]

Not sure I understand the concept of half position, but I'd definitely finger the last bar differently. I'd keep my middle finger on the 7th fret, my index on the 6th, and hit the 9th fret with my pinky for the B instead of using the G string. Much less hand shifting that way. As a matter of fact, the way I see it, you should only have to change positionss for the last bar...the first 3 bars I'd play from the same position. Just my .02.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by bloobass

Not sure I understand the concept of half position,

The concept is to make small shifts up and down the neck, rather than stretching to reach notes outside the hand's natural comfort zone. The 3rd finger is not used because the tendons are connected funny. Upright bassists have been doing this for centuries; on the upright/double bass it is necessary due to the 42" scale length. 34" electric players seem to be split 50/50 between 1-2-4 covering 2 frets and 1-2-3-4 covering 3 frets (but I will make the observation that many of the old pros who've been playing pain-free for decades favor 1-2-4).

[Mushroo]

Returning to the TAB example in the original post, you'd finger the A-C#-E pattern with fingers 2-1-4 (just as a 1-2-3-4 player would), but rather than keep the hand stretched out, you'd make a 1 fret up shift between the C# and E, then a 1 fret down shift to return to the 2nd finger on the A.

(Or, alternately, simply play the A open string, C# 4th finger 4th fret, E 1st finger 2nd fret, and so forth.)

Clear?

[ToshitomoriOh]

Hi Mushroo, playing with 1-2-4 fingers is just what I was referring to as half position. I wonder if it would be possible for you to tell me which one of the 1-2-4 fingers you would use to play each one of the notes in this phrase. Thanks, much love from Japan.

[ToshitomoriOh]

By the way, I think I am going with option (2) of yours, Mushroo.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by ToshitomoriOh

Hi Mushroo, playing with 1-2-4 fingers is just what I was referring to as half position. I wonder if it would be possible for you to tell me which one of the 1-2-4 fingers you would use to play each one of the notes in this phrase. Thanks, much love from Japan.

Arigato!

I personally would play:

22221242 | 11114141 | 22221241 | 2212421 ||

(Notice I have moved the B from the G string 4th fret to D string 9th fret.)

What feels most comfortable to you?

Is this a real song, by the way? It sounds really familiar, but I can't quite remember...

[michael_t]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Being totally comfortable shifting 1 or 2 frets up or down is the secret to playing with relaxed 1-2-4 fingering technique.

Originally Posted by Mushroo

...always use TAB as a guideline and feel free to come up with fingerings that are comfortable for you. (This is particularly true if you're using some random internet TAB as opposed to a TAB written by a good teacher for educational/instructional purposes.)

These are both good pieces of advice.

Being a 5'6" Japanese (from Canada) myself, I also have very small hands. So, one of the keys to improving my bass playing was to learn to shift properly and comfortably, vs. the "stretch till it hurts" approach.

[ToshitomoriOh]

Thank you so much Mushroo. Michael T, I think I'll stick with half position from now on.

[Febs]

I think that there is some mixup of terminology here. The left hand technique that the OP is referring is Simandl fingering, or 1-2-4 fingering. "Half position" refers to the use of that fingering in a specific position on the double bass. The equivalent electric bass position would be with the first finger of the left hand on the first fret, the second finger on the second fret, and the fourth finger on the third fret.

Back to the OP's specific question, Mushroo's two points do a pretty good job of explaining the way I would approach this. I would also consider using one finger per fret, especially for the E chord since it is high enough on the neck for one finger per fret to be used comfortably.

[funnyfingers]

Mushroo - Maybe I am not realizing how stretchy and flexible my hands are which is why I feel so strongly about 1 finger per fret even with what I thought were small hands. I can bend all my fingers full back as far as people can bend them forward and also can touch my thumb to the side of my arm. This is why I always won in the game of mercy, but never realized it was abnormal. All 4 of my fingers are pretty independent as well, which I guess according to what you've written is not the norm...

[Snarf]

Use open strings or shift your hand. Even if I'm playing in middle positions on the fingerboard with four fingers, I'm still shifting.

[White Beard]

Just to back up Febs, he is absolutely correct. The example you've given is more analagous to second position. One of the ways that TAB can limit you is that it tells you how to play a phrase that might not be the best way to do it.

Carol Kaye adapted Simandl for bass guitar that works very well. Basically, you use four fingers to span 1 1/2 steps until the tenth fret, and then you start using one per fret after that.

[Mushroo]

My understanding of the term "half position" matches Febs, but I didn't mention it earlier, because I know musical terminology varies from country to country, and this alternate usage might be common in Japan for all I know.

Originally Posted by funnyfingers

Mushroo - Maybe I am not realizing how stretchy and flexible my hands are which is why I feel so strongly about 1 finger per fret even with what I thought were small hands. I can bend all my fingers full back as far as people can bend them forward and also can touch my thumb to the side of my arm. This is why I always won in the game of mercy, but never realized it was abnormal. All 4 of my fingers are pretty independent as well, which I guess according to what you've written is not the norm...

I've always thought of my hands as small as well. My index/1st finger is 3.5"/9cm, which according to this this thread is in the bottom 15% for bass players.

I can play 1-2-3-4 fingering all the way down to the 1st fret. Playing 1-finger-per-fret with the 1st finger at 4th fret (as in the OP's TAB example) is easy and comfortable for me, no strain at all. 1-2-3-4 works great for things like boogie-woogie 1-3-5-6-b7-8 patterns. Several of my bass teachers (including one HIGHLY respected player) have emphasized 1-finger-per-fret with various stretching and "spider" type exercises.

Nevertheless, after 25 years, I'm convinced the 1-2-4 fingering is the more natural and relaxed playing style. I will admit that I also play upright, so that may have influenced my thinking somewhat. But I am not alone in this; from watching youtube videos of Jaco Pastorius, Carol Kaye, Rocco Prestia, Paul Jackson, and other great players who have enjoyed career longevity (well, Jaco not so much ) they all seem to use 1-2-4 whenever possible, and only stretch out into 1-2-3-4 when a challenging musical passage demands it. To be honest, most of the players I see using exclusively 1-2-3-4 on gigs are young players who have never had formal playing and have learned primarily from internet TABs. Watch pros with 20+ years experience, and you will see they don't keep their left hand locked in a fixed grip, but rather move comfortably and smoothy up and down the neck like it's an extension of their body. I teach my students 1-2-4 with fluid shifting, so that they can have a relaxed and pain-free playing experience.

Here is a great example of Jaco (who was double jointed and could easily stretch 4 or 5 frets if he wanted to) using 1-2-4 fingering below the 10th fret, and only stretching to 1-2-3-4 momentarily when it is necessary, then collapsing back to 1-2-4. Jaco is not playing this way because he has small hands or a deficiency of chops; he is playing this way because he came up through the club circuit playing long sets 6 nights a week, and needed a technique with minimum strain and fatigue.

Furthermore I find that when the hand is in a relaxed position, accuracy (and intonation if you're a fretless player) are much improved. When preparing to shift, for example 4 frets up the fretboard from C to F, if your hand is relaxed, you can easily judge the distance and make the shift cleanly. But if your hand is stretched into a tensed position, then it has a tendency to collapse as you shift, and your fingers might miss the mark and flub the note. At least that is the way it works for me; YMMV.

[funnyfingers]

Mushroo - Ah I am in the 60th percentile with 4".

Don't get me wrong on the playing. I will play as you described to for certain things.

Let me give another example I recently ran into... I play The Police - Every Breath You Take all from frets 1 - 4. The tabs online from the person who figured it out himself plays it using the F on E string 1st fret and goes to the 6th fret for the other notes. I find since I am singing and playing at the same time it is just so much easier the way I described.

Appreciate the chat!

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by funnyfingers

Let me give another example I recently ran into... I play The Police - Every Breath You Take all from frets 1 - 4. The tabs online from the person who figured it out himself plays it using the F on E string 1st fret and goes to the 6th fret for the other notes. I find since I am singing and playing at the same time it is just so much easier the way I described.

The person who TAB'ed it that way is correct, according to every Youtube video I've seen of Sting.

[tbplayer59]

On a small shift like this (one fret), simply keep your thumb in the same place (it should be centered behind your 2nd finger in regular playing), then to shift, think about pivoting on the thumb. You can easily shift all the fingers up a fret or down a fret.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by tbplayer59

On a small shift like this (one fret), simply keep your thumb in the same place (it should be centered behind your 2nd finger in regular playing), then to shift, think about pivoting on the thumb. You can easily shift all the fingers up a fret or down a fret.

I'd have to disagree with this suggestion. When you are playing in the lower positions, the thumb (in my opinion) should never go past the 1st finger, otherwise your hand is crossed up and there's too much tension in the thumb-palm "crease." Likewise, when you shift, you should keep your wrist/hand neutral and move your entire arm from the shoulder. Initiate the motion from the large, strong muscles of the shoulder and arm, not the small, delicate muscles of the wrist/hand/fingers.

Here's a video demonstrating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkSsapYYsA

Here's Paul Jackson demonstrating this technique in a gig context, 66 minutes of hard slamming funk without breaking a sweat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puM38Xgz38w
And a closer look (appears he's dropped his thumb a bit over the years, doesn't hook it over the neck as much, pointing more toward the headstock): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFcpBB4Yy_M

Of course there are many different ways to play the bass, there is no one "correct" approach, for example I wouldn't consider this to be "good left-hand technique," but DAMN!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK5IFyo0k0Q