Playing to click, how important is it?

bullshark · #1 01-19-2008, 03:00 PM

I'm asking because I've noticed some of the older recordings that I love are not constant tempo. Example is Rolling Stone 1966 album Aftermath on which tempo on most tune is wavering considerably, to the point where I have trouble following along playing bass. I know it's the album since I've analyzed and tempo mapped a few tune off of it in my sequencer, they obviously weren't playing to no click track. The bass isn't even following the drums in some parts.

So, my dilemma is this: Should I practice getting my tempo right on playing with a click, which is what I've been doing up to now, or should I practice trying to follow off-tempo musicians?

My teacher says it's normal for tempo to waver when playing live and I should learn to adjust. Where I doubt is that the bass is supposed to set Tempo, no? So, isn't tempo wavering because the bass player is off, and it wouldn't happen if the bass was on click to begin with?

fenderhutz · #2 01-19-2008, 03:01 PM

If you are looking for pro studio work, learn to play with a click. Most studios will have drumemrs playing to a click.

If you are playing in a live rock band, drink until it clicks.

bullshark · #3 01-19-2008, 03:13 PM

You mean I have to practice my drinking too? Playing bass "is" hard work after all

Putting the question another way, don't know if it was clear the way I posted first: When I play with other musicians, say a guitar and a piano player, and they drift off-tempo when playing complicated part, should I hold the original tempo hoping they'll come back to it, or should I follow them along?

fenderhutz · #4 01-19-2008, 03:16 PM

I would just ask really. You shouldn't hurt anyones feeling if you feel the tempo is off, they could just be feeding off each other and speeding up the tempo not realizing it.

WayneS · #5 01-19-2008, 03:18 PM

You should hold the tempo IMHO. Anybody who calls themselves a musician should be able to hold tempo even without a metronome. If you play with a click enough, after a while you wont need it anymore. Also, when you play with a band, the drummer is the metronome and if he cant hold tempo then he shouldnt be playing.

This is how it was for me anyway, maybe I'm just special!

Rockman · #6 01-19-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullshark

You mean I have to practice my drinking too? Playing bass "is" hard work after all

Putting the question another way, don't know if it was clear the way I posted first: When I play with other musicians, say a guitar and a piano player, and they drift off-tempo when playing complicated part, should I hold the original tempo hoping they'll come back to it, or should I follow them along?

Also depends on the style, what you may think may be off-tempo could be just them trying to play on the back or front end of a note. If its swing for example you should be steady as a rock, while the horns/melody are playing behind the beat, latin everyones on top, funk everyone behind.

Dogbertday · #7 01-19-2008, 03:21 PM

the tempo change should be almost a choice by the group... I say hold the tempo unless you (along with the rest of the group) choose to speed it up... it's all about being in tune with hat other people's musical ideas are....

I'm in a band and we just jam a lot... not even like on a blues or anything ...it's like one of us will start and the others build... no set chords or anything... and we often choose to either bring the tempo up or down... even for one part and then going back... now are we always concious of this choice?... no

bikeplate · #8 01-19-2008, 03:24 PM

HI

I think your question is geared more towards recording or unless your band live plays to a click because of sequenced music it uses. Most times you are gonna be at the mercy of your drummer. Period. My present drummer is all over the place. Rushes choruses, filles, etc. Its very difficult. Sometimes I leave a gig thinking my skills have diminished!!! Not the case. Its just that its hard to play out of time and out of pocket once you learn to play correctly.

On the other hand, we play to a click at my church gig which is twice a week. Thank God for my church gig!! Keeps me sane. We sequence alot of instrumentation to pro tools and all play to a click through in ear monitors as we perform. I love it!! Feels like playing in a studio with no rushed passages and lousy drummer brain farts. I cant really put it into words how enjoyable it is for me.

I urge to be as good as you can be. Dont let others hold you back as you progress. Also, playing along to Rolling Stones records isnt the best thing for you. The arent exactly technicians at their instruments. Some cool songs, thats about it. You are better off playing along to modern recordings. They are more than ofter done to clicks with pride. Music is all timing. It wasnt supposed to be a big rushed mess. Take pride in what you do.

Rob

Alvaro Martín Gómez A. · #9 01-19-2008, 03:28 PM

To me, being able to play along with a metronome is a crucial skill that any musician should have, but even more important in a rhythm section player. As I've said to my students: It isn't about becoming a human metronome (I think that's not possible), but if you can play any kind of rhythm against a metronome, then you for sure will be able to do your main job as a rhythm section player more efficiently.

thisSNsucks · #10 01-19-2008, 03:34 PM

Click tracks are your friend. Play with them as much as you can. It comes in handy when you record.

Dogbertday · #11 01-19-2008, 03:35 PM

see I think you should be able to play as if there's a click track without one and you should be able to play right along with one... but I think it takes some of the human element out of the music sometimes... I forget who said it but there's a quote out there... "music should never be too perfect".. I'm no talking about studio work because then you're being paid tobe perfect... i'm just talking about independant music creation... recorded or live

JohnDavisNYC · #12 01-19-2008, 03:42 PM

playing in the pocket with a click track is, IMO, the single most important skill for bassists and drummers in this day and age.... since SO much modern music ends up getting edited, looped, chopped, and otherwise ruined by monkeys with protools, we more stuff that we can do that avoids the scalpel, the better! also, obviously, your ability to hold it down without a click will improve.

so, yeah. practice with a click all the time. you never know when you will have a gig where you have to play to a drum machine or samples live or to track or something...

john

Alaska Bass · #13 01-19-2008, 03:44 PM

Spend some time playing with a click track (by time I mean several days of serious practice) to refine your internal clock. Then, every month spend a few hours playing with one again. Encourage (by encourage I mean demand) that the rest of the band do the same.

In a recording environment, you have to play to click; this makes ProTools (or Nuendo, etc.) editing possible. If you play a chorus twice and end up a beat or a measure quicker on one, sections of the other will not be easily transferred (by easily I mean in an amount of time that is not overly costly to whoever is paying the studio time). It just makes editing and non-live recording much simpler and easier.

In a live environment, you have to play to the band you are with. If the rest of the band slows down, you need to as well to maintain the integrity of the song. MOST people in the audience will not notice minor variations in tempo, they will however notice the bass player that isn't in sync with the rest of the band (guess who gets canned then?). Fortunately, as the band and you start your monthly internal clock tweaking (with practices having a click track to guide) you will start to lock in with each other much better and will not have the quantity or severity of tempo issues you may currently be experiencing.

In an ideal world everyone has a perfect internal rhythm clock and they can communicate without words or even movement, but until you are there...

Click it.

bullshark · #14 01-19-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska Bass

they will however notice the bass player that isn't in sync with the rest of the band (guess who gets canned then?).

Lot's of good opinion in this thread, enough for me to mule over for a few days, but the quote above has put the finger right on the sore. I had been accused of not following tempo by the other musicians I played with, which are all amateur I should say, until session recordings proved that I was right on click and they weren't.

I worked very hard to be able to play with a very steady beat, and I'm afraid of losing that if I start to try to follow unsteady musicians... but then again I don't want what we play to sound like crap either...

JohnDavisNYC · #15 01-19-2008, 04:19 PM

well, your job is to still play WITH the band... just because they are rushing doesn't mean you should just keep playing at the same tempo you think is right... i mean... i think that playing WITH the other musicians onstage should go without saying...

you just have to get drunk and curse out the drummer later for having crappy time.

john

Alaska Bass · #16 01-19-2008, 04:19 PM

It sounds like the real issue isn't the benefits of click track, but a sloppy band that not only doesn't want to improve, but feels intimidated and therefore resents your musical abilities. The best thing you can do in this situation, and you will do it now, or two years from now, is politely bow out. They are swimming in their own pool of ignorance, don't let them drown you too.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but there are two reasons for it.

1. Playing with a group that is consistently below you in skill will hamper your growth, in fact it will adversely affect your abilities.

2. If they have already complained, then were proven wrong and still won't change, this gives clear direction for you; either start playing sloppy to placate them, or attempt to continue playing tight and suffer from their resentment, or leave to play with better musicians (BTW, are they really musicians if they don't want to improve? Just a thought.)

I hope you can make a good decision and move forward.

inasilentway · #17 01-19-2008, 05:01 PM

Practice with a metronome for sure. I wish I'd done it more when I first started, it's taken a lot of work to not get frustrated playing with a metronome now.

I played with a drummer who had never practiced with one before, and he was usually consistient throughout a song. But his biggest problem was starting the songs at the same tempo every time, and it fell to me to let him know. So we worked out a signal that meant "too slow" and one for "too fast" and at some point in the first verse, or the middle if we were dragging, I'd go right up to the kit and let him know, we'd adjust, and the guitarist/singer would follow us.

Now, I'm playing with a singer/songwriter. There are a few songs where she adds an extra beat or two, always in the same couple of places. We talked about it and the song really lost something when it was perfectly in time. So I adjusted to her, which is not easy but not that hard.

So, communication is the most important thing, don't believe anyone who tells you perfect time is always right. Rhythmic idiosyncracies sometimes can make a song even better. If you dropped that Stones album into Pro Tools and fixed the tempos, would they still be awesome?

cowsgomoo · #18 01-19-2008, 05:13 PM

even the world's greatest musicians speed up & slow down if they're not playing to a click track.. it's a fact of life

you name me a rhythm section and i'll go away and produce the data to prove it

or even better, a recording of YOUR band, all you armchair bass players

speeding up & slowing down isn't an issue per se, it's how much you do it... I bet I could analyse your favourite 'au naturelle non click track' band and surprise you with the tempo variation you'd find

I've been doing just that to Zappa's bands (in order to transcribe the bass) and you'd be amazed at the variation in what sounds rock solid... stuff you don't notice looks horrendous when examined... tempo drops of 5bpm from bar to bar on relatively simple stuff... stuff that the perfect musicians here would frown upon... but you can't hear it unless you're looking for it, and they got the Zappa gig.. so who needs to care so much?

Jim Breece · #19 01-23-2008, 08:59 PM

There are songs where the chorus sounds better a tiny bit faster than the verse or vice versa. Perfectly even tempo start to finish makes overdubbing easier, but isn't always more musical. IMO. Drum fills that don't come out on one or guitar licks that speed up because the player is nervous are a different story.

mutedeity · #20 01-23-2008, 09:19 PM

Being able to play to a click is essential. Being able to follow a click track helps you to develop a good sense of internal timing and will only improve your timing when playing without one. Also if you can't play to a click you can forget about getting any kind of studio work and no-one likes a sloppy player. The end.