Playing Less vs. More in Black/Death?

[Nyarlathotep]

OK so it might seem weird to be posting about black/death in the technique forum, but WTH!! LOL!

Basically I've been listening to a lot more death/black stuff and I've noticed two distinct types of bass playing: "With the guitars" and what I'll call "under the guitars"

"with" is playing right along with the guitars, note for note, includeing tremolo picking. "under" is where the bass plays at the beginning of a tremolo series but not any more until the guitar changes notes.

Which do you prefer?

eg.:

"With"
Guitar:
E ---------------------------------
B ---------------------------------
G ---------------------------------
D ---------------------------------
A -----------------1-1-1-1---------
E -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0---------3-3-3-3-

Bass:
G ---------------------------------
D ---------------------------------
A -----------------1-1-1-1---------
E -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0---------3-3-3-3-

"Under"
Guitar:
E ---------------------------------
B ---------------------------------
G ---------------------------------
D ---------------------------------
A -----------------1-1-1-1---------
E -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0---------3-3-3-3-

Bass:
G ---------------------------------
D ---------------------------------
A -----------------1---------------
E -0-----------------------3-------

[PrimusNut]

I'd say both. But you also have to be creative, throw in some fills at times to make it more interesting.

[BullHorn]

Listen to stuff like Atheist.

On the other hand, there is Death. The bass just plays what the guitars play, except for when Chuck solos. But their lines aren't mindless powerchord/rootnote banging, so it's fun.

[Grimlock]

If the guitar is tremolo picking, the bass is tremolo plucking, and the drummer is hitting those crazy 16ths on the double-kick, there is simply no room to breathe.

I like Death/Black Metal, but the newer, more extreme stuff seems more like an endurance race. What ever happened to using space; just listen to a Reggae bassline to marvel the effect space has!

I vote "Under".

[diechris]

i dont now about leaving THAT much space... but maybe half the amount of notes?

[tr68gt]

Most of the time I don't play right with, but rather at an off beat that accentuates both instuments, still locked with the drummers and/or other percussion.

But, other than that, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm still developing my own style with and without the rest.

[Nyarlathotep]

Thanks for the replies!

For now I figure I'll work on my speed. I can always slow down, right?

Another (kinda related) question: What kind of pick would you use for tremolo picking on bass???

I find the heavys (1.14mm) don't work at all. Been experimenting with thins (0.5mm), and it seems to be working better...

[velvetkevorkian]

I tend to be a "with" guy (why the hell else did I learn to sweep on a bass?). Good to use both though.

[905]

Personally I would try to find some sort of compromise, alternatively get some octaves in there, but if I had to choose I'd pick
WITH
guitar.

[MammaryVest]

There is no "style" for the genre, it all depends on the song. If someone comes to you with a riff, you have to try a bunch of different things to see what sounds best, regardless of what it ends up being technique-wise.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally Posted by SMASH

I asked this of Flo from Cyptopsy the other night. He said that they're trying to move to more complimentary parts rather than everyone doing something busy at once.

For one thing it makes a mess a live that results in parts bein inaudible, especially the bassist's. For another, you can have more variety compositionally if you pick the spots to be supportive or chaotic.

So I'd say "both".

1st off Cryptopsy = (and not only cus they're canadian )

2nd: It makes sense that live, busy bass would suck.

Been listening to a few more albums and I've noticed some variety on the newer stuff, especially within songs. Getting chaotic for riff fill/transitions but with the actuall main body of the riff being supportive. Am definatly going to try that approach on my next project...

Seems to work

[Fathand]

I usually play about half of notes what the guitarists are playing (e.g 16ths -> 8ths), when there's a tremolo riff. My sound is pretty dark and I play with my fingers so fast tremolo sounds a bit mushy, less notes = more air in the mix -> the whole sounds a lot more precise.

[JimmyM]

No reason to choose a preference, is there? Serve the song, that's what I always say.

[soontobedead]

i think that the greatest thing since sliced bread in the death/black metal bass technique world (say that 5 times FAST) is harmonizing and countering, not just doubling. It's nice too when the guitar players orchestrate the riffs AROUND your playing, but lay off a bit so you can pop up sometimes .

Listen to the chorus of Death's "Nothing is Everything" off of the Individual Thought Patterns album.... THAT IS THE EPITOME OF TECHNICAL AND CREATIVE BASS PLAYING (it's Steve DiGiorgio, so it's a no brainer).
Sean Malone from Cynic and Roger Patterson/Tony Choy of Atheist (and the latter from Cynic and Pestilence, too) are great at doing this.

Play slower, double or play faster.... but don't stick to the roots... it will give your band a much more technical, open approach... and you won't crowd that much the mix and/or mess up live either.

PD: you lucky canadian bastards... get all the greatest tech death metal bands x_x

[Matt Till]

Both is the best way of doing things. If the drummer is kickin' double bass, I say tremolo stuff is the way to go in most cases. If the drummer breaks into something......... basically listen to the drummer, it's your job wheter you like it or not. :d

[chaosMK]

I'd say it depends what the drummer is doing.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally Posted by chaosMK

I'd say it depends what the drummer is doing.

I imagine that applies to most genres

[All_¥our_Bass]

For uber fast stuff I play under. More counterpoint based-stuff, not just roots. Plus I'm so selfish in one way...
I always strive to be clearly heard, not just by the band but by the audience as well. So I adjust my parts to taste to make sure I can be be heard and help the song out at teh same time (don't worry, I know when to back off too).

If it's slower (not the usual in black/death) I'll play with, but sometimes I'll use a harmonization as a way to mix it up.

[velvetkevorkian]

Originally Posted by SMASH

I asked this of Flo from Cyptopsy the other night. He said that they're trying to move to more complimentary parts rather than everyone doing something busy at once.

For one thing it makes a mess a live that results in parts bein inaudible, especially the bassist's. For another, you can have more variety compositionally if you pick the spots to be supportive or chaotic.

So I'd say "both".

Ha that pretty much settles it I guess!

edit- I do try and follow the kick drum if the drummer plays something relatively straight; if they do something obscure then it all depends on the riff.

[Sandman1278]

Originally Posted by chaosMK

I'd say it depends what the drummer is doing.

beat me to it