Playing on top of the drummer's beat

Sheldon681 · #1 03-02-2009, 12:25 AM

I recently got a chance to play for the first time onstage with a band and I'm trying to learn as much from the process as possible. The drummer is a world class musician and when I asked for areas where I could improve after the show, the comment he made is that I rushed him and played on top of his beat. I've listened to the recordings and I just want to make sure I understand the dynamic of what's happening so I can correct it.

It basically sounds like like I'm playing a bit faster than I should and plucking slightly earlier on the beat than he is. On some songs you can hear him trying to hold the rest of us back, and on other songs it sounds like he tries to speed up just a tiny bit to give himself a bit of room (I'm guessing), which just causes the problem to to start all over again after I adjust to the new tempo and then get on top of the beat again. When this happens, the tempo at the end of the song is quite a bit faster than at the beginning of the song. Also, I can hear in some songs where he uses pauses/changes in the song to bring us all back to a slower beat.

For some of you experienced players, does it sound like I'm interpreting his comments correctly? Is the preferred way to correct it to try harder to block out the guitarists and focus solely on keeping in time with the drums? Before going on stage I'd only ever practiced with recordings and they don't seem to speed up at all no matter how fast I play. LOL

Any advice you guys have would be appreciated.

slinkytrf · #2 03-02-2009, 07:35 AM

if you've only played with recordings that could probably be the problem. You have to actually jam with the band and get a feel for how everyone plays and thats how you get your timing down. Also, when I play out i follow the drums I don't really listen for the guitar unless im lost on where I'm playing or **** up somewhere but other than that just jam with the band i would say. Good luck to you

ga_edwards · #3 03-02-2009, 07:49 AM

You may want to think about having a couple of sessions with just you and the drummer to get more closely acquainted with his playing. It will also be easier to hone in on the problems he's pointing out.

I would also recommend standing close to him when playing with the band on the hi-hat side so you can watch what he's doing, when he's going to hit, and make lots of eye contact.

Lastly, in your case I'd recommend a drum machine or metronome of some sort. So you get used to playing to steady tempos and rhythms. Don't make this your sole source of timing practice though, you don't want to end up like a lifeless robot.

phektus · #4 03-02-2009, 10:21 PM

Yeah ask for time to jam with just the drummer. Also, lots and lots of eye contact.

unity bass · #5 03-02-2009, 11:41 PM

Wow, this got wordy but I'll say it anyway...

Playing with a metronome, more time with the band and one-on-one time with the drummer are all excellent suggestions. Standing by the hi-hat is especially good advice.
I'll add that, in my opinion, the most important thing is what you're already doing, so nice going. You have a sincere interest in giving your band mates what they want and need and that fact is proven by the questions you've asked to your drummer and to this forum. If I'm reading your comments correctly, I see you're attitude towards your development as one of generosity and that's the best attitute you can have in a band. If you're you're saying (both during the song as well as between songs), "hey, I'm listening, what do you need from me?", then you can't miss. I think listening is the key to any successful relationship and being in a band is no different.

As to your question about focusing more on the drummer; well, the guitarists in my band are all over the place. I sometimes feel like I'm literally saving them from flying off the tracks. My drummer and I have the very important job of locking in and holding it all together. So yeah, stand by the hi-hat, watch your drummer and grin and groove; you'll feed off of each other and everything will fall into place.

Finally, keep doing what you're doing, have fun and keep us posted with gig reports!

Chad

StyleOverShow · #6 03-03-2009, 12:06 AM

What you are describing, playing 'on top' of the beat is sometime referred to as anticipating. It is often employed to 'punch' up a riff but loses its effectiveness when overused.

Playing ahead of the beat is rushing and that is generally not our job as the builders of the groove.

The other tempo change that you describe is interesting. Sounds like the band is floating while the drummer does his fills or something else other than pound out the beat.

I would second what Unity Bass has said: Relax and enjoy it without too much analysis.

-richard

edbutler3 · #7 03-03-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheldon681

I recently got a chance to play for the first time onstage with a band and I'm trying to learn as much from the process as possible. The drummer is a world class musician and when I asked for areas where I could improve after the show, the comment he made is that I rushed him and played on top of his beat. I've listened to the recordings and I just want to make sure I understand the dynamic of what's happening so I can correct it.

It basically sounds like like I'm playing a bit faster than I should and plucking slightly earlier on the beat than he is. On some songs you can hear him trying to hold the rest of us back, and on other songs it sounds like he tries to speed up just a tiny bit to give himself a bit of room (I'm guessing), which just causes the problem to to start all over again after I adjust to the new tempo and then get on top of the beat again. When this happens, the tempo at the end of the song is quite a bit faster than at the beginning of the song. Also, I can hear in some songs where he uses pauses/changes in the song to bring us all back to a slower beat.

For some of you experienced players, does it sound like I'm interpreting his comments correctly? Is the preferred way to correct it to try harder to block out the guitarists and focus solely on keeping in time with the drums? Before going on stage I'd only ever practiced with recordings and they don't seem to speed up at all no matter how fast I play. LOL

Any advice you guys have would be appreciated.

Yes, from what you've written I'd say you have understood the drummer's point very well. Playing "on top of the beat" (or even ahead of the beat

) is something that can happen due to excitement or nerves when playing in front of an audience. In most styles of music that I'm familiar with, the groove sounds better when the bass is slightly behind the beat. This takes some patience and the ability to relax and loosen up on stage.

The distinction between "ahead of the beat" (always bad!), "on top of the beat", and "behind the beat" is often not apparent to most musicians in their first few years of playing. It is (IMO & IME) one of those subtleties that takes some experience and lots of careful listening to master.

One thing to keep in mind is that a drummer may play different parts of his kit with a different rhythmic feel. For example, often the hi hat will be pretty metronomic (right on the beat) but the snare will fall substantially behind the beat. And maybe the kick is just slightly behind the beat (right where you'd want the bass to be most of the time). So when you are playing a bass line, you might need to push and pull the rhythm a bit depending on whether your notes land on a kick or snare beat, or whatever. And if there's a little bit of "swing" between the 8th notes, you need to be feeling that too. If the drummer is putting a little swing in there but you are playing totally straight, your offbeats (on the "&") will hit early compared to the drummer, which can make it sound like you are rushing.

I think this is one of those things that some lucky people just "get" intuitively, but many others don't. The way my mind works, I had to intellectualize a lot of this stuff at first because I wasn't born with great rhythm -- but after a while I did manage to develop a more natural feel for it so I seldom need to think about it consciously anymore when I'm playing.

Sheldon681 · #8 07-20-2009, 07:49 PM

Just a quick update, in the past few months I haven't had a chance to play full gigs with these guys again, but I have had the opportunity to sit in for a couple of tunes a few times when they've been back in town.

The problem has been largely corrected. The odd note I come in early or late, but generally, I'm well locked-in with the drums. When I listen to the recordings afterwards I have to strain pretty hard on some notes to distinguish the thump of the bass from the thump of the bass drum. It's still something I'm working hard on in practice and it's now something I listen for, versus taking for granted that I'd be in time with the drums. In fact, whenever I watch other bands, I'm extra sensitive to other bassists' timing as well, something I'd never noticed before. From talking to the drummer after the last show, he said he didn't notice any issues at all, which is a success in my book.

Thanks again to all for the great advice in this thread.

BigOldHarry · #9 07-20-2009, 08:00 PM

It's hard to really explain to someone where to sit in the beat - it gets *really* fun at a loud gig when your ears get blown out - I always make sure I can see the snare drum so if worse comes to worse, I can see where he's hitting the 2 & 4 (on rock tunes) so I I know I'm steady. If I can hear, I pay close attention to the kick drum and swing around it - Not to directly on top of it (anticipating it), but just a rat hair behind it, so it give it some swing...

Does that make sense?

c r a m e r · #10 07-30-2009, 10:48 PM

dont stand to close to the guitar amp (if their is one),that always throws me off

JLP · #11 07-30-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edbutler3

Yes, from what you've written I'd say you have understood the drummer's point very well. Playing "on top of the beat" (or even ahead of the beat

) is something that can happen due to excitement or nerves when playing in front of an audience. In most styles of music that I'm familiar with, the groove sounds better when the bass is slightly behind the beat. This takes some patience and the ability to relax and loosen up on stage.

The distinction between "ahead of the beat" (always bad!), "on top of the beat", and "behind the beat" is often not apparent to most musicians in their first few years of playing. It is (IMO & IME) one of those subtleties that takes some experience and lots of careful listening to master.

One thing to keep in mind is that a drummer may play different parts of his kit with a different rhythmic feel. For example, often the hi hat will be pretty metronomic (right on the beat) but the snare will fall substantially behind the beat. And maybe the kick is just slightly behind the beat (right where you'd want the bass to be most of the time). So when you are playing a bass line, you might need to push and pull the rhythm a bit depending on whether your notes land on a kick or snare beat, or whatever. And if there's a little bit of "swing" between the 8th notes, you need to be feeling that too. If the drummer is putting a little swing in there but you are playing totally straight, your offbeats (on the "&") will hit early compared to the drummer, which can make it sound like you are rushing.

I think this is one of those things that some lucky people just "get" intuitively, but many others don't. The way my mind works, I had to intellectualize a lot of this stuff at first because I wasn't born with great rhythm -- but after a while I did manage to develop a more natural feel for it so I seldom need to think about it consciously anymore when I'm playing.

Can,t splain any better

Tama · #12 07-31-2009, 03:42 PM

One thing's for sure, the relationship between the bass player & the drummer is really important. The two lock-in perfectly when things are right. Hopefully he is patient with you and works with you to get things tightened up.

If he doggs you, that's no way to get it together.

More time together will help.

Even with my limited experience with playing with others, that's the way to make it work.

Dave

**ExaltBass** · #13 07-31-2009, 03:57 PM

A couple of observations learned over time...

It helps me to stay in sync with the drummer if I think in 1/8ths - if the feel is 1/4s - or. 16ths if the feel is 1/8ths...etc. (doubling your thinking helps you stay sharp)

ALSO - think about where the 'FAT' of your note is in relationship to the beat. You have to play ever-so-slightly ahead of the beat to have the note blossom ON the beat and yet remain in time.

ark amps · #14 07-31-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExaltBass

think about where the 'FAT' of your note is in relationship to the beat. You have to play ever-so-slightly ahead of the beat to have the note blossom ON the beat and yet remain in time.

That is the very reason I either play right on the beat or slightly after it; so the kick drum's attack is the first thing you notice; makes your timing sound "perfect"!!!