Please let me into your mind. 16th grooves.

[schmig]

Hi folks,

I've been taking lessons from an excellent teacher for the last few months. This chap is very focused on technique and spent some time fixing up my left and right hands (finger-per-fret, light touch, floating thumb etc all improved hugely).

Anyway about 3 weeks ago he basically said, "F*ck it, go learn this, come back to me when you can play it".

Alain Caron's P.A.C. Man:

Alain Caron-P.A.C. Man.avi - YouTube

This is unlike anything I've attempted before as until the lesson I was a rather heavy handed blues player, full stop.

Now to get to the point:

- I had no real trouble learning the progression (big Zappa fan and the "jazzy" sounding parts really appeal to my ear)

- What has turned out really tricky is the driving 16ths at 105 BPM, combined with dead notes in sometimes tricky places.

I'm slogging away at it, approaching from lower tempos. Can play straights 16th fine against the full 105BPM, but when I play the line proper, my right hand finds it hard to keep playing the constant 16ths when there are apparent gaps in the rhythm, e.g. where there are dead notes.

It seems to me that to play this stuff (similar to fingerstyle funk I think, but my knowledge is limited and I may be way off), that the right hand needs to become almost a little independent engine, beating away on its own while the left makes the groove happen.

My question to someone who has been trough this: any mental insights or anything you'd like to say about your own experience? Am experiencing in equal parts elation (when I improve), frustration (at where I am) and worry (that maybe I won't make it up to full tempo).

[basstulip]

Sounds like your teacher is getting frustrated. Did he choose something so tough that you might never returneyebrow:

lighten up

[sammyp]

i transcribed that line last week but i haven't practiced it yet ....i know no other way than slow down with a metronome and build up speed ....i've been putzing with YYZ sinse i started 'practicing" bass serious a year and a half ago and it is finally getting there.

he must not be hungry for students! can't he teach you some theory while you're honing your Alan Caron?

[IncX]

wow, the song reminds me of that main groove in Tower of Power's What is Hip

when i learned that groove, i was counting one-ee-and-a-two-ee

and it help me broke down the 16 note groove

[pacojas]

- What has turned out really tricky is the driving 16ths at 105 BPM, combined with dead notes in sometimes tricky places.

perhaps you need to lighten your touch a little more.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by schmig

What has turned out really tricky is the driving 16ths at 105 BPM, combined with dead notes in sometimes tricky places.

I'm slogging away at it, approaching from lower tempos. Can play straights 16th fine against the full 105BPM, but when I play the line proper, my right hand finds it hard to keep playing the constant 16ths when there are apparent gaps in the rhythm, e.g. where there are dead notes.

Starting slow and slowly increasing is the way to go. But this is important: dead notes are NOT gaps in the rhythm - they are a big part of the rhythm (see next response).

Originally Posted by schmig

It seems to me that to play this stuff (similar to fingerstyle funk I think, but my knowledge is limited and I may be way off), that the right hand needs to become almost a little independent engine, beating away on its own while the left makes the groove happen.

I'm assuming you are right-handed. Know this beyond all else: the right hand creates the rhythm, the left hand fingers the notes. Rhythm is much more coordination-related which is why right-handed players pluck with their right hand and finger notes with their left. In most cases, the right hand stuff is much harder than the left hand stuff.

Originally Posted by schmig

My question to someone who has been trough this: any mental insights or anything you'd like to say about your own experience? Am experiencing in equal parts elation (when I improve), frustration (at where I am) and worry (that maybe I won't make it up to full tempo).

Good! You're going through what you need to go through. If you want to just play for fun, don't worry about it and just play for fun. If you want to really be something, it's going to be all these emotions and more, and it's extremely demanding. But those times when the music is just happening and you're feet can't touch the floor and your fingers can go in the wrong spot - better than anything else on this planet.

Keep at it my friend...

[schmig]

Thanks everyone. When he gave me the piece to learn he basically told me, "I haven't had any students as driven as you, nor have I asked anyone to learn this before", basically. He says there's nothing else he can teach me on the technique front and my theory is OK anyway (did some night courses at university and studied theory out of interest before I took up the bass). I think what's he's trying to do is push me into applying properly everything he's thought me so far about a light touch etc.

Thanks for encouragement and your own thoughts - I'll check out What Is Hip when I get to the bottom of this thing.

What I'm kind of looking for here is an insight into the workings of the mind when you're playing a piece like this. It's tricky to explain what I'm looking for...for example..I used to teach computer science at a university years ago. In tutorials I would teach the kids the method to solve the problem, but I would also lead them through my own intuitive thought process when approaching problem solving.

My first EUREKA! with PAC Man came after a full 3 weeks of daily playing - I'm not the fastest on the uptake - which was to let my plucking (right) hand play 16ths regardless of what's happening with the left hand, a type of coordination I've never developed. Just looking for anyone else to describe theirs...

[schmig]

Originally Posted by IncX

wow, the song reminds me of that main groove in Tower of Power's What is Hip

when i learned that groove, i was counting one-ee-and-a-two-ee

and it help me broke down the 16 note groove

This has been absolutely essential in getting to grips with the grove alright. As I have read in this forum in the past, I am trying to hear those 16ths everywhere now.

[schmig]

Originally Posted by sammyp

i transcribed that line last week but i haven't practiced it yet ....i know no other way than slow down with a metronome and build up speed ....i've been putzing with YYZ sinse i started 'practicing" bass serious a year and a half ago and it is finally getting there.

he must not be hungry for students! can't he teach you some theory while you're honing your Alan Caron?

He's an unusual and very nice character...his rates are about 30% of other teachers. I offered to pay him double his asking rate but he told me it wouldn't be fair, because he wants everyone who wants to learn to be able to afford it. He also tells me a student just came back lately after one year on an exercise!!!

Re your transcription - I have one passed on by the teacher if you'd like me to send you a copy? As regards slowing it down, I used amazing slower downer to make copies of the track at 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (in retrospect I should have made an 85% and a 95 % too), burnt these to a CD, and have them in the hifi which I play along with sometimes. Other times I just have the metronome going.

[schmig]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Know this beyond all else: the right hand creates the rhythm, the left hand fingers the notes. Rhythm is much more coordination-related which is why right-handed players pluck with their right hand and finger notes with their left. In most cases, the right hand stuff is much harder than the left hand stuff.

If (righthanded) basses were shipped from the factory with a little instructional booklet accompanying them, this should be in there.

[JimK]

Originally Posted by schmig

... which was to let my plucking (right) hand play 16ths regardless of what's happening with the left hand, a type of coordination I've never developed.

That is very important. The RH plucking fingers, in constant alternating motion, become your metronome.
The LH fretting fingers play the notes you want + the muted ones.
This kinda independence is key.
Back when I was in better "playing" shape...I would sit in front of the NFL all Sunday while my plucking fingers alternated on my log of a Fender Jazz.

Same goes for a rhythm guitarist playing in a similar style. RH should be in a constant up/down motion (again, this is the time keeper).

[Groove Doctor]

Independence - its like going from a single core to a dual core processor. IT WILL TAKE TIME but stick with it - enjoy the ride and don't be obsessed with the destination.

[Groove Doctor]

Can you sing and play at the same time?

Have you learned drumming patterns - they require phenomenal independence, yet the different beats come together musically. Try tapping on table or legs something like a bossa nova beat.

Right hand plays 8th notes
Right foot 1..+3..+| 1..+3..+| etc.
Left hand 1..+..4. | .+..3.4. | etc.

Or triplets with one hand with duplets in the other, etc.

Getting these into muscle memory and to play on without thinking really helped my develop my independence.

[251]

Originally Posted by schmig

Hi folks,

I've been taking lessons from an excellent teacher for the last few months. This chap is very focused on technique and spent some time fixing up my left and right hands (finger-per-fret, light touch, floating thumb etc all improved hugely).

Anyway about 3 weeks ago he basically said, "F*ck it, go learn this, come back to me when you can play it".

Alain Caron's P.A.C. Man:

Alain Caron-P.A.C. Man.avi - YouTube

This is unlike anything I've attempted before as until the lesson I was a rather heavy handed blues player, full stop.

Now to get to the point:

- I had no real trouble learning the progression (big Zappa fan and the "jazzy" sounding parts really appeal to my ear)

- What has turned out really tricky is the driving 16ths at 105 BPM, combined with dead notes in sometimes tricky places.

I'm slogging away at it, approaching from lower tempos. Can play straights 16th fine against the full 105BPM, but when I play the line proper, my right hand finds it hard to keep playing the constant 16ths when there are apparent gaps in the rhythm, e.g. where there are dead notes.

It seems to me that to play this stuff (similar to fingerstyle funk I think, but my knowledge is limited and I may be way off), that the right hand needs to become almost a little independent engine, beating away on its own while the left makes the groove happen.

My question to someone who has been trough this: any mental insights or anything you'd like to say about your own experience? Am experiencing in equal parts elation (when I improve), frustration (at where I am) and worry (that maybe I won't make it up to full tempo).

Here is a place to start, straight 8s
Fun Slap Exercise
2 more lessons were posted, find them with the Search button on the TB menu bar using the phrase; Fun Slap

Good luck & remember to thank Greg when you're done.

[Sithian]

Originally Posted by schmig

Anyway about 3 weeks ago he basically said, "F*ck it, go learn this, come back to me when you can play it".

Originally Posted by schmig

He also tells me a student just came back lately after one year on an exercise!!!

I really disagree with this methodology. IMO, find a new teacher- someone that can walk you through the process to learn something, instead of saying to you "Go learn this". I believe you will exponentially speed up the learning curve.

That student that came back after a year just essentially lost a whole year that he could have spent working with a very good teacher working on 1 exercise!!

Run.