pocket goes RIGHT out the window when I slap... (help with rushing)

sleeplessknight · #1 06-21-2009, 08:02 PM

So, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a 'slapper'. Fingerstyle funk, walkin' basslines, I can do that **** all day every day in my sleep, rain/shine/tidal wave/whatever. Spankin' the plank, however, remains a bit of a mystery, although I think I've got a good grasp of the mechanics. For this new band I'm in, they do a LOT of disco covers and that means I *need* to get a handle on this 'slap' stuff. I've noticed that with the drummer and my good friend Roland*, I tend to be REALLY on top of and even a little in front of the beat. I'm consistent about it, but the tune loses its pocket quickly. Case in point: Car Wash, by Rose Royce. The verses are fingerstyle, but the choruses are that simple (albeit funky) slapped octave pattern. For some reason, I'm having a BI*CH of a time breaking myself of slapping/popping ahead of the beat! I play it slow with Roland, its juuuuust that tiny bit ahead. I play it faster, I'm still right on top of it. It gets worse when I introduce a live drummer to the mix, as we tend to speed up the song because he's expecting me to lay back and keep that nice pocket we had going for the verse. Slapmeisters, I beeseech thee! How can I (quickly!) regain the pocket when I start spankin' the plank?

--Lee

*my metronome

otis_thick · #2 06-21-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeplessknight

So, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a 'slapper'. Fingerstyle funk, walkin' basslines, I can do that **** all day every day in my sleep, rain/shine/tidal wave/whatever. Spankin' the plank, however, remains a bit of a mystery, although I think I've got a good grasp of the mechanics. For this new band I'm in, they do a LOT of disco covers and that means I *need* to get a handle on this 'slap' stuff. I've noticed that with the drummer and my good friend Roland*, I tend to be REALLY on top of and even a little in front of the beat. I'm consistent about it, but the tune loses its pocket quickly. Case in point: Car Wash, by Rose Royce. The verses are fingerstyle, but the choruses are that simple (albeit funky) slapped octave pattern. For some reason, I'm having a BI*CH of a time breaking myself of slapping/popping ahead of the beat! I play it slow with Roland, its juuuuust that tiny bit ahead. I play it faster, I'm still right on top of it. It gets worse when I introduce a live drummer to the mix, as we tend to speed up the song because he's expecting me to lay back and keep that nice pocket we had going for the verse. Slapmeisters, I beeseech thee! How can I (quickly!) regain the pocket when I start spankin' the plank?

--Lee

*my metronome

Both of you have holes in your pockets! Don't try to reinvent the wheel! Play the line like it is!... that goes for both you AND the drummer in order to LOCK into each other. AFTER you and the drummer can read each others timing, THEN you can start jacking around with the groove! You have to speak the language before you can write the poetry!

RedLeg · #3 06-21-2009, 08:15 PM

Develop your inner timing. I have similar issues. I had the fortune to have a master class with Adam Nitti a few weeks ago and he showed us this technique.

Use drum machine/program as a metronome, and play your line; but only let it click on half notes (2 clicks a measure) at first. Then work up to whole notes (1 beat a measure). Finally you know you have it when you can have one click every 2 measures and you are locking in.

*Make sure you aren't watching for any visual cues from your drum machine, set it and look away.

I have been using this technique and it has really reworked my internal time. Anyone can play along with a standard metronome; but developing good internal time is hardly ever stressed, and this technique will develop it. Hope I could help

dmusic148 · #4 06-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Well, if the drummer speeds up, all is lost. So fix that. Next, notice that even in the slapped parts, the notes are kept short- slaps as well as pops. Gotta mute them just right. Also notice that approximately every other slap is a double slap, this is key as it gives a bit of a swing to the line.

Jazzdogg · #5 06-21-2009, 09:12 PM

Good posts by both RedLeg and dmusic148.

This video by Victor Wooten is very instructive:
http://www.korg.com/ProSessionDetails.aspx?ID=647

When you're not used to playing staccato, time can suffer; it's a little easier to play four quarter notes per measure than it is to play four evenly-spaced sixteenth or thirty-second notes per measure. Adreneline can also make us rush - remember to breath.

Do you play differently when you're accompanied by a drummer?

As the late, great, Ray Brown suggested when I spoke to him several years ago, A good bassist sets and keeps the time, and elevates the pocket to a level that the drummer cannot achieve by himself; the bassist is just as responsible for time as the drummer: own the time.

TB is sure a great place!

JimmyM · #6 06-21-2009, 11:15 PM

What you need to do is practice playing at very slow speeds. Like take it down to 60 bpm and play the chorus to "Car Wash" over and over and over until you hit every note on the beat. Then build gradually. You're trying to do it at tempo, but you need to relax and put it down to a speed where there's no pressure at all, and you can feel exactly how you're rushing.

And practice other things at painfully slow speeds...one of my favorite exercises is to start the click at 80 bpm, and play whole notes just a little behind the beat so it sounds natural. Then keep slowing the tempo down by 5 bpm until you get down to like 40 bpm. And don't move on until you perfect it.

xjeremiahx · #7 06-22-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What you need to do is practice playing at very slow speeds. Like take it down to 60 bpm

that will help you with ANYTHING. it works so well, i HATED it when i was told this/tried it...but man it works.

Hoover · #8 06-22-2009, 07:19 AM

Patient: "Doc, it hurts when I do this!"

Doctor: "Don't do that."

jaywa · #9 06-22-2009, 10:25 AM

I have the exact same problem. I'm considered to be one of the better fingerstyle bassists in the area, but whenever someone asks me to do a slap line I have to say, "you really don't want me to do that."

Count Bassie · #10 06-22-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

I have the exact same problem. I'm considered to be one of the better fingerstyle bassists in the area, but whenever someone asks me to do a slap line I have to say, "you really don't want me to do that."

Welcome to class...

Sonicfrog · #11 06-22-2009, 10:47 AM

I just tell people I'm handicapped - I was born funkless!!!!!

But seriously, I really do want to learn this technique, but I just can't get the thumb action right. I really should take some lessons.

ClassicRock55 · #12 06-22-2009, 11:24 AM

Gah! The solution is soooooooooooo obvious! You're never gonna get good with a metronome named "Roland." You need something much more bada** like Boss!

Chipsonfire · #13 06-22-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonicfrog

I just tell people I'm handicapped - I was born funkless!!!!!

But seriously, I really do want to learn this technique, but I just can't get the thumb action right. I really should take some lessons.

I had this same problem (and really still do, but it's getting better). I couldn't understand how people could slap the way they do, until I realized my thumb is shaped different, meaning I have to approach it differently. Try playing around with different angles and see if that helps. For instance, I either slap with my whole thumb parallel to the string, or even attack it from below the string. Sorry if that doesn't make a lot of sense, I know it's a fairly visual thing. Just play around with it.

otis_thick · #14 06-22-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonicfrog

I just tell people I'm handicapped - I was born funkless!!!!!

But seriously, I really do want to learn this technique, but I just can't get the thumb action right. I really should take some lessons.

Your Funk Bone is under developed

jaywa · #15 06-22-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

I just tell people I'm handicapped - I was born funkless!!!!!

Being "funky" and being a good slapper have nothing to do with each other.

I have heard some of the funkiest lines ever, played fingerstyle. I have also heard amazing displays of slapping virtuosity without a sliver of soul in them.

nysbob · #16 06-22-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaywa

I have the exact same problem. I'm considered to be one of the better fingerstyle bassists in the area, but whenever someone asks me to do a slap line I have to say, "you really don't want me to do that."

Ditto.

I fool around with it sometimes, but it really has no use in the type of music I play...plus I'm at a loss to control the dynamics effectively. .

I can't say I've lost a gig for not doing it, though.

EADG mx · #17 06-22-2009, 12:48 PM

Like anything I think you have to do it a few thousand times until you develop a feel for it. Slap is really a different animal because (assuming you're using thumb + index, no Victor stuff) you're actually very limited in terms of what you can play.

Most slap and pop lines played in this fashion are actually just alternating the thumb and index in 8ths and 16ths with some rests to suit the rhythm. In this case you do the movement, but purposefully miss the string (think guitar strumming). Look at pretty much any RHCP line (preferably in notation) to see what I mean.

Try alternating the thumb and index like this: Start with straight 8ths, and then start to leave out (rest) on certain beats. Keep this up until you "get" it.

jaywa · #18 06-22-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysbob

I fool around with it sometimes, but it really has no use in the type of music I play...plus I'm at a loss to control the dynamics effectively.

The dynamics of slap are tricky, but compression/limiting can help with that. OTOH no black box can fix the tempo/groove thing. At least live.

JimmyM · #19 06-22-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysbob

Ditto.

I fool around with it sometimes, but it really has no use in the type of music I play...plus I'm at a loss to control the dynamics effectively. .

I can't say I've lost a gig for not doing it, though.

Wow, and here I thought Adrian Belew was all about slapping

sleeplessknight · #20 06-22-2009, 02:20 PM

All great suggestions guys, thanks! I'm going to work on the "'nome at 60bpm' tonight and see how that works for me. I don't think its a 'mechanics' thing, I get the notes to sound on both the slap and the pop. I'm about convinced its a 'timing' thing, like there's some sort of natural delay built into my perception of the feel when I slap that causes me to hit juuuuuuust ahead of the beat. Here's a practice session recording with me and the band:

http://www.leewhalen.net/music/bv/STE-007-CarWash.mp3

My apologies for the complete abortion of groove on the slap fill, that has since been fixed :-p I think the verses sound fine, and about halfway through I gave up on slapping the chorus and did it fingerstyle so the pocket would come back. Hopefully that'll help shed some light on the problem....