Practising without a metronome

[project_c]

I remember reading a big debate involving Jeff Berlin all about practising without metronomes, and like many others, I remember thinking it was a crazy idea at the time. However, I've recently been using the metronome less and less when practising, and I've noticed an improvement in the way I play, so I thought I'd share my thoughts.

I normally practise with headphones, with a P-Bass going direct into my Mac, so my tone is not distorted or altered in any way - there is no hiding from mistakes. I've found that with a metronome I was paying more attention to my timing than the feel and attack and clarity of each note I was playing, and the metronome click kept this fact hidden from me - it only became apparent when I recorded myself and listened back to how each note sounded without the click - some of them sounded sloppy, the attack was weird and the feel wasn't right.
I still use a metronome to tighten up my timing, but I now spend a lot of time without the metronome too, and this allows me to concentrate on the actual sound and feel of my playing (and not just on every second note, for example).

So I guess overall my point is that I think I get what Jeff was talking about. Without a click track to 'lean' on, I pay a lot more attention to the music I'm playing, rather than just paying attention to playing in time. I appreciate that timing is everything, but there is a lot more to sounding good than perfect timing. Just a small observation I thought was worth sharing..

[puddin tame]

i've never used one and I do OK. but I have a "don't try this at home, kids" approach about it like it probably depends on the person

[Blacksack]

i own a metronome but i dont use it all the time i use it mainly for building up endurance with scale exercises but for speed an tech i just make up my own rythm and time

cant say this is the best way to practice n i sure as hell aint no jaco or billy sheehan but hey this method works for me

[bThumper38]

I like wooten's technique where he uses a beat that you here every five seconds or so, and try to hit that beat every time.

[DougD]

If you don't already have a good internal sense of time, a metronome aint gonna help. I see a metronome as a tool to help solidify what's already there, and to learn to play in time with odd or really fast/slow tempos that I may not be used to. Playing to a drum track is great for coming up with new grooves tho.

[Fergie Fulton]

Ahhh the debate on nomes. You have to understand the reason why it does and does not work. Using one is great, but using one when there is no need is damaging. Using one to help understand timing is great, using one for the timing is bad.
For some players the use of one for ten minutes at the start of their playing may all the will ever need. It reinforces the idea of timing. If anyone has ever came into contact with a nome then they will have learned something from it....fact. It may be positive or a negative experience but they will have learned from it.

As a child you learn with water wings, water rings or some sort of aid to help you understand the idea of floating, even a parents touch. Then you never need them again....actually to continue using them is harder than not using them.
Learning to ride a bike as a child, again there a stabilisers to help understand balance, there is the parents touch again, all are used to help with the understanding of balance, to continue using them is harder than to not to. And so on, you will always find that anything that helps you understand a concept become redundant once it has been understood and the task becomes internalized.
Then there are those that don't need any help, the fact they don't need it does not make a case in point to prove that other can do the same.

As for Jeff Berlin, two ways to look at what he says.
1/ He at some point came into contact with a metronome or similar device and learned from it either concious or sub-consciously in his playing life. Remember Jeff is a classically trained violin player so he would have be exposed to ideas about timing and rhythm that he would not understand, if at all, till later in his playing life.
2/ He was a natural with an innate sense of time and rhythm so for him there is no problem, so no understanding of what it is like to struggle with the idea of time and rhythm.

What matters is how you use the nome, it can be constructive or destructive to a player and that is what needs to be recognised. A player is not always the best to make this decision so that's why many good teachers and players teach and recommend the use of one.
With on-line players and more lessons being without teachers it becomes hard to control its use properly. That's why Victors video is so cool because it makes the player important and have to work.... not the nome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1fhVLVF_4

[JTE]

Depends. If the 'nome is supplying your time, it's pointless. Jeff Berlin's point is that playing in time while you're trying to work out fingerings and get the sense of the music is detrimental. I would agree with him on this point (after discussing it with him personally at on of his seminars 10 years ago- we also had an interesting discussion of fretless bassists).

IF you use the 'nome as a standard against which to check your own time, it can be very useful. But if it's supplying the time and keeping YOU in time, it's worse than useless. That's why Ed Freidland's (one of the most prominent of many people who espouse this kind of metronome use) teaching to use the 'nome to only supply part of the measure is so important. Here's the deal- part of the bassist's job is to supply the groove and to keep time. We supply the beat, not rely on someone else. So, if you set the 'nome for example to only click on 2 and 4, then 1 and 3 are firmly on your own shoulders. And here's the key to this- the 'nome is a harsh mistress. She'll gladly point out each and every time you screw up the time.

So, don't use the 'nome for all your practicing. When you use it, use to work specifically on time issues. Sure you can hit the one every measure right on. But how accurate are your 16th notes? You can't play those Rocco, Jemmott, Pastorious 16th note grooves if your time is sloppy, even if you do nail the 1. Periodically check yourself by playing something you know (or think you know) with the 'nome only giving you 2 and 4. Or try it with the 'nome only giving you beat 3. Or, ripping off John Goldsby in this month's Bass Player (the one with Rickey Minor on the cover), how about if the 'nome only clicks on the last triplet of 2? Can you maintain the groove like that?

It's a tool to be used for specific applications, not a Gerber multi-tool.

John

[BassChuck]

That Wooten YouTube is a great suggestion for how to use the metronome. BTW I don't subscribe to the 'you got rhythm or you don't" theory. How many people have you seen not walking in rhythm? Most of the problems have to do with not having the technique to put notes where they belong..... or paying attention to something else.
Playing in time with other musicians is a 'give and take' thing. But if there are people involved that don't pay attention, don't have the technique, or are just bull-headed and selfish, the game is over.

[KingRazor]

I have a metronome but I use it pretty rarely. I'd probably use one more if I was writing my own material, but when it comes to learning existing songs, I just have the song play in my head and follow that. It usually sounds right. I can't really play by ear because I can't just hear a run and then play it, but I can figure out the rhythm by ear.

[johnboy65]

I think it's a good skill to have if you do any recording. If for no other reason than being comfortable.

[dpbass66]

I'd love to hear Jeff Berlin's his opinion on fretless bass. I agree with his metronome ideas. The problem with Jeff sometimes is that he just throws down without following through to complete the thought. he says no metronome....and stops there, his explanations are vague. Its a guide, a tool. To rely on it for time does not advance your playing, to use it as a check against YOUR time is nice. Ive been using the one click per meaesure ideas for years and it really straightens you up. I also agree that technique is what hampers most guys...not their sense of time. If you ask a studetn to just sing the bassline, they sing things in usually very good time....pick up the bass and its all out the window.

On a tangent here about the comment on Jeff Berlins ideas about fretless bass...it is just another sound....analogous to horn players that play alto, tenor, Soprano....etc....I think we tend to get WAY too caught up in "What is REAL bass...?"....it should have 4 strings only...it doesnt need 5 or 6....blah, blah blah.....WHO CARES!?

[JTE]

Originally Posted by dpbass66

he says no metronome....and stops there, his explanations are vague.

I don't think he's vague at all. His argument, which has been pretty well articulated in several places, including his seminars, his articles years ago in Bass Player (including a discussion with Gary Burton who used one), and his threads here on TB, is that playing in time when you're learning something is detrimental. At the seminar I attended his example was to give someone a thing to play and demand that they play it in time. The first bit was one note, playing straight quarter notes at about 85 BPM. The second example was something like "OK, now play a D13b5b9 augmented 11th arpeggio at this tempo" while he taps out about 160BPM. Well, of course the guy couldn't pull of the second one after acing the first one. However, that's only ONE use of the 'nome.

His point is that IF you really know the music you can execute it in time. And if you can't execute it, then trying to execute it in time is pointless. I agree with that point. I do disagree with him that the 'nome is pointless in all cases, though...

Originally Posted by dpbass66

I agree with his metronome ideas.

... and ...

Originally Posted by dpbass66

Its a guide, a tool. To rely on it for time does not advance your playing, to use it as a check against YOUR time is nice. Ive been using the one click per meaesure ideas for years and it really straightens you up.

But Jeff doesn't even think it's useful as a guide or a tool to check your time. That's where he looses me. His point that its technique and understanding music that hampers people however is straight to the point.

Originally Posted by dpbass66

I'd love to hear Jeff Berlin's his opinion on fretless bass.

Well, this ain't the right place to bring that up, but I'm sure if you google "Jeff Berlin"+"fretless" you'll get a lot. Suffice to say that HE believes there are very few fretless players who've been able to escape the pervasive Jaco influence. He can be pretty inflamatory on this one and his famous pronouncement on The Bottom Line Bass Digest set the tone.

John

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by dpbass66

I'd love to hear Jeff Berlin's his opinion on fretless bass. I agree with his metronome ideas. The problem with Jeff sometimes is that he just throws down without following through to complete the thought. he says no metronome....and stops there, his explanations are vague. Its a guide, a tool. To rely on it for time does not advance your playing, to use it as a check against YOUR time is nice. Ive been using the one click per meaesure ideas for years and it really straightens you up. I also agree that technique is what hampers most guys...not their sense of time. If you ask a studetn to just sing the bassline, they sing things in usually very good time....pick up the bass and its all out the window.

On a tangent here about the comment on Jeff Berlins ideas about fretless bass...it is just another sound....analogous to horn players that play alto, tenor, Soprano....etc....I think we tend to get WAY too caught up in "What is REAL bass...?"....it should have 4 strings only...it doesnt need 5 or 6....blah, blah blah.....WHO CARES!?

Oh no, not this again, _please_ not this. If we speak the name of the devil, he's likely to reappear and I'll have to leave TalkBass again.......

I won't go into the 'nome thing again since that has long since been hashed out even after JB decided to stop participating in the debate.

His opinion of the fretless is equivalently stupid. He basically says if you play the fretless you sound like Jaco, or specifically IIRC, "I've never heard an FL player who sounded original". I've never heard a dumber statement, especially coming from a virtuoso on our instrument.

Even he himself disproved that when, during one of his debates with Steve Baily, he picked up SB's fretless and noodled on it a little bit to make a point. He sounded exactly like Jeff Berlin, not a trace of Jaco in his sound.

Please let's not bring this back......

LS

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

That Wooten YouTube is a great suggestion for how to use the metronome. BTW I don't subscribe to the 'you got rhythm or you don't" theory. How many people have you seen not walking in rhythm? Most of the problems have to do with not having the technique to put notes where they belong..... or paying attention to something else.
Playing in time with other musicians is a 'give and take' thing. But if there are people involved that don't pay attention, don't have the technique, or are just bull-headed and selfish, the game is over.

Again it is working out what having rhythm is. You nail it on the head, it is concentration and having a clear mind what to play next. If you are confident ( so that means knowing exactly what you are going to play) then timing is not an issue so much. But if you hesitate when playing or your technique causes you to think about what you are doing and not playing then you hesitate at points in playing and then you are out of time.

Plus one to JTE and all the others on it being a tool to be used. And yes Jeff and I do agree on it can be detrimental to a player, but only when used wrong or for the wrong reasons, and that is true of so much in life.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, this ain't the right place to bring that up, but I'm sure if you google "Jeff Berlin"+"fretless" you'll get a lot. Suffice to say that HE believes there are very few fretless players who've been able to escape the pervasive Jaco influence. He can be pretty inflamatory on this one and his famous pronouncement on The Bottom Line Bass Digest set the tone.

John

There's a big difference between being inflammatory and just being idiotic - inflammatory is saying true, but disgruntling things, idiotic is just saying stupid things.

Like I said before this is nothing but just dumb. There's no way you can listen to players like Steve Bailey, Bunny Brunel, Tony Franklin and on and on and still say they're just shadows of Jaco. That's just silly.

But there are those who nod their heads in agreement when he says this, which is just flabbergastingly ridiculous. In one of the previous JB debacles I even had a guy tell me JB gave him pointers on the FL and took them to heart. That's like taking classes in physics from Ray Comfort - I also have some great beach-front property on Saturn I'd like to sell you too.

LS

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by unclejane

There's a big difference between being inflammatory and just being idiotic - inflammatory is saying true, but disgruntling things, idiotic is just saying stupid things.

LS

The both fall under irresponsible as do most things that can be done or said without consequence to the person doing the talking. The responsible part to any teacher or player is use of their reputation, that can carry a lot of weight, even when it is in the wrong.
That requires responsible thinking and talk not just opinion based on what they have experienced.
There is a need for younger players to believe that what worked for one will work for another. Trouble is for many when they realise that is not the case it can be to late for them to change or go back to opportunities missed.

In the nome debate, lets all take out of it the positives of what it does, lets teach the best ways to use one. In any sort of debates if the positives are talked about and supported then the negatives pail in to insignificance.
I for one last use a nome in practice about 1978 and have never used one since. My playing and timing are part of that use, they have to be because that is how we learn as human beings.
We learn and understand so many things without sitting and addressing the task we have learnt, we even learn and don't realize we have learnt as we use it.

For example, look at someone and state their height and guess their weight. Most people can do this to some degree but they never learned to do it as a lesson. They have used measurement so they know how to adapt it.
We all know what 5 minutes feels like, but we never learned it, but we know the difference between 5 mins. and 10 mins. We never sat and learned all the different times you can wait or look to have past, but we can use what we know to work it out, or come close.
This is because we can reference against a tape measure or ruler that measures distance, or a clock or watch that measures time. Metronomes measure tempos, so you can measure against it... whether you want to or not.

For me i cannot say they do work or they don't work, i do not think anyone can because there affect on us cannot be quantified as a positive or a negative in music.
Because it is a tool and it will be the individual that uses it that will set that parameter. But i would never ever dismiss them or insist on them as part of music learning because that is irresponsible.

[Jpeachbass]

Originally Posted by DougD

If you don't already have a good internal sense of time, a metronome aint gonna help. I see a metronome as a tool to help solidify what's already there, and to learn to play in time with odd or really fast/slow tempos that I may not be used to. Playing to a drum track is great for coming up with new grooves tho.

I most certainly will. With practice that is. Ive had students with awful time, i sent them home with a boss db 90 and told them to eat sleep and breath the down beat. Also having them clap time with it 10 minuts a day, and they now have solid time.
Its like saying a gps wont help you get to your destination because the road has a big rock in the middle.

[dpbass66]

...there is a clear difference between good metronomic time (a steady pulse) and good groove time......frankly i'd swap out good metronomic time for good groove ANY DAY. Listen to Ron Carter...great feel, but he (sometimes) rushes....nobody cares....the metronome cant teach good groove. You know, that intangible, greasy, slinky feel that some guys just "got". Jaco....Marcus....Rocco....name any great player, they all have it, thats part of the reason why they became great....if it were all just about chops there would be millioins MORE great players in the world.

[BigOldHarry]

you're just trying to get Jeff back on TB...!!

[dpbass66]

Yes, cant wait for Jeff to jump back in the arena. Actually I dont have anything against the guy, I agree with his perspective (maybe not about fretless), and I think he is a virtuoso. enough said.