Problem with quick runs

tk4207 · #1 12-06-2010, 07:06 PM

This requires a little explaining, so here goes:

I'm in my high school concert band (junior), and I play electric bass (yeah, it's pretty epic

) and every year in March we are expected to perform a solo at the Solo/Ensemble event at the tech college.

This year I've chosen my first Class A piece, Vivaldi's Bassoon Concerto in D Minor, movements One (84 bmp) & Two (26 bmp). Yes, I am arranging it for bass (just a few octave issues, and replacing trilling with vibrato).

As I've progressed through the first movement, I've run into some problems with first the 32nd note run. It's 16 notes long, and at 84 bpm, it equates to 5.78 notes per second

I guess my problem is not playing that fast, but rather being able to articulate the notes at that speed. Right now, I've got it down at 60 bpm, but when I speed it up to 84, it just sounds like a bunch of jumbled garbage. What I'm looking for is suggestions as to how to approach it technique-wise, so that I can get it down!

Here is the original on Bassoon (the run is at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVwyKZShQKI
Thanks in advance!

JTE · #2 12-06-2010, 07:24 PM

Um, I'd say slow it down to 42 BPM, and work out the articulation. Then speed it up to say 46 BMP and make sure you nail the articulation there. Then bump it up to maybe 50, then 56, etc. Make very small increases in tempo so you can maintain the articulation and execution until you can play it at 90+. It seems like you're probably making too big an increase in tempo from the learning stage.

John

tk4207 · #3 12-06-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Um, I'd say slow it down to 42 BPM, and work out the articulation. Then speed it up to say 46 BMP and make sure you nail the articulation there. Then bump it up to maybe 50, then 56, etc. Make very small increases in tempo so you can maintain the articulation and execution until you can play it at 90+. It seems like you're probably making too big an increase in tempo from the learning stage.

John

Well, I can articulate reasonably well at 60, but anything beyond that I'm having trouble getting my fingers to separate and not sound garbled.

JTE · #4 12-06-2010, 08:28 PM

"Reasonably Wells's means you don't have it together. That's why I said 42. The key to fast playing is precise playing at low tempi.

John

codeinedreams · #5 12-06-2010, 08:53 PM

try tapping it. I do that for certain parts in classical pieces that call for it - cleaner tone with good note separation

Jpeachbass · #6 12-07-2010, 02:01 AM

Like the guy before said. I forgot to quote. Slow down. Even slower than he said. And be careful about large tempo jumps. go up steady. One thing that wasn't said. When you nail it at tempo. Keep going up. With 32nds don't go way up there but go 10 or 15 bpm faster than profomance tempo. When you go back to PT "its like butter baby". I haven't herd this piece so im kinda shooting in the dark but check your fingering as well. I could be that your fingering is getting in your way. try it several different ways until you find a comfortable one. And last but not least. Don't forget about the measures around the problem area. Fransois Rabbath said, not exact words, "if you practice a problem area and not the entire piece or at least whats around it you will trip up in that area more often than not"

Fergie Fulton · #7 12-07-2010, 03:01 AM

Im with JTE on slowing it down, even take it slower and look at the fingering. Have you got the best fingering available? Is the approach fingering setting you up properly for the run?
One more point, don't let it get into your psyche. Don't let the anticipation of any part of a musical piece/performance interfere with the execution of what you are trying to do. If you believe you have a problem you will create one where none exists. That's why you slow it down and break it up, it reinforces the point you can do the task. If it turns out you can't then you have identified the problem, so now you can work on putting it right.

tk4207 · #8 12-07-2010, 05:48 AM

Well, first off, I can play it perfectly up to around 60 bpm, and at 60, it's passable for now. And as far as I know, my fingering is correct (keeping the hand in the same place, using 1 finger to 1 fret). I have tried tapping, but I end up getting more string noise than notes (which may be my fault =D)

Any other ideas?

Fergie Fulton · #9 12-07-2010, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk4207

Well, first off, I can play it perfectly up to around 60 bpm, and at 60, it's passable for now. And as far as I know, my fingering is correct (keeping the hand in the same place, using 1 finger to 1 fret). I have tried tapping, but I end up getting more string noise than notes (which may be my fault =D)

Any other ideas?

Then all is well, you are trying for to much improvement. Improvement comes in plateaus, not usually as a visible improvement bit by bit. When you reach one plateau you find it is more than you had expected because other parts are influenced as well, part that you may never notice because you are not looking for improvement there.
If you keep on doing the work you have being doing, all will work itself out. I feel you have the ability from what you are trying to do, that you are working on the correct things, you may be impatient, or the deadline has become your focus rather than the playing.
I find that if a player keeps on playing through a piece regardless of mistakes, the mistakes will lessen. If a player continually stops for mistakes then the continuity and flow is disrupted and that creates the anticipation of any passage that has been a problem to be the thinking.

The key is to trust in your own abilities, you know you can play it, its just about the tempo of how it fits in the piece you are doing.

Skitch it! · #10 12-07-2010, 06:25 AM

Legato, don't pick everything, and try using the 5 fret scale span for a fluid legato approach, trying to pick everything at that speed (unless your using 4 finger technique) is going to be a challenge to keep articulated, clean and flowing.

tk4207 · #11 12-07-2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

Legato, don't pick everything, and try using the 5 fret scale span for a fluid legato approach, trying to pick everything at that speed (unless your using 4 finger technique) is going to be a challenge to keep articulated, clean and flowing.

Yep, I've been keeping it within 5 frets, and it is supposed to be slurred, but all of the string jumping required it making it hard to keep it smooth

Alvaro Martín Gómez A. · #12 12-07-2010, 09:52 AM

My metronome computes 101 beats per minute at that specific spot on the recording you provided. I'd play it like this:

Use the one finger per fret technique for the run. I actually tried it and I think it works (with a little more practice). Hope this helps.

tk4207 · #13 12-07-2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

My metronome computes 101 beats per minute at that specific spot on the recording you provided. I'd play it like this:

Use the one finger per fret technique for the run. I actually tried it and I think it works (with a little more practice). Hope this helps.

Sorry, the 32nd notes start just after that, and in the recording it is played a bit faster than 84, but I intend to play it as written.

Also, it needs to be played further up the fretboard than you've written.

MartinBorgen · #14 12-08-2010, 07:53 AM

As everyone have said practise makes perfect.

when i need to play something hard and fast, I play it slowly, headbang and stomp to every beat, make sure you get the articulation and rhythmics exactly right, you'll need be able to play it in your sleep. then faster. and then some faster. and then fast, etc, eventually faster than you need to.