Punk Theory?

[Zebra]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

the Sex Pistols might be seen as a joke in San Francisco, but here in England they're seen as THE punk rock band, with the Clash a very close second...

all that stuff about marketing and 'not being a real band' was entirely the point of punk for a lot of British kids...

by the mid 70's they were sick to death of their music being fed to them by the SAME generation of musicians that appeared in the mid 60's... all those guys like Pink Floyd & Rick Wakeman and all the rock aristocracy like Elton, McCartney, Jagger, Townshend, Rod Stewart, were STILL the biggest rock stars around... the whole musical atmosphere was characterised by extreme reverence for these 30-something rock stars and their 'genius' works... 'authenticity' was something highly valued...

so, the whole appeal of the Sex Pistols was that they were specifically a group that (apparently) couldn't play and didn't appear to care about it, or about being rock stars in any traditional sense... their very existence as a 'fake' rock band, the deliberate idiocy they projected, and the fact that seemingly anyone could do what they did, completely undermined people's reverence towards rock music and rock musicians... and people in Britain saw this even if people in hippy strongholds like San Francisco didn't

Punk was anti-commercial by nature. Just because the Sex Pistols were all about money doesn't mean that Punk was. The Sex Pistols became a marketed fad. No **** they were the iconic punk band. It's one of the reasons the movement died about as fast as it started.
If you think a band that contradicts the origins of their genre makes them the greatest band in that genre, then go ahead and think that. They were a marketed product based on the punk movement, and according to you, some people ate it up in Britain.

[dtimke]

Originally Posted by Risen Ashes

UMM what? PUNK IS ABOUT ATTITUDE AND THE SEX PISTOLS HAD THAT. MY FAV PUNK BAND IS THE CLASH THEN THE RAMONES THEN THE MISFITS...BUT THE SEX PISTOLS DESERVE THEIR RESPECT...SID MAY HAVE BEEN A JUNKIE-BUT HE'S THE EPITOME OF PUNK.

NOW HISTORY LESSON...IGGY POP AND THE STOOGES (CONSIDERED THE GODFATHER OF PUNK) (ATTITUDE) LOU REED (THE FATHER OF PUNK) AND THE RAMONES ARE THE BAND THAT STARTED IT ALL IN 1974 NY/NJ...THE CLASH SAW WHAT THEY WERE DOING AS DID THE SEX PISTOLS AND CAME ABOUT IN ENGLAND AROUND 1976. MISFITS, BAD BRAINS, AND WHOLE LOT OF OTHER BANDS CAME ABOUT...PUNK INFLUENCED THE NEW WAVE OF BRITISH HEAVY METAL (IRON MAIDEN BEING THE MOST RECOGNIZED) AND THE BAY AREA "THRASH" METALLERS-METALLICA, MEGADETH, TESTAMENT (METALLICA-INFLUENCED BY MISFITS,MAIDEN, BLUE OYSTER CULT, MOTORHEAD, BLACK SABBATH).

IN THE EARLY 70S BANDS LIKE JUDAS PRIEST AND "ARENA METAL BANDS" WERE IMPACTED BY THE PUNK MOVEMENT AND PUNK BEGAN TO KILL OFF METAL...(THIS WHEN PUNKS AND METALHEADS ALIKE BEGAN FIGHTING) THIS IS ALSO WHEN OZZY WAS KICKED OUT OF SABBATH...WHEN OZZY STARTED HIS SOLO CAREER WITH RANDY RHOADS, METALLICA AND CLIFF BURTON BEGAN TEARING UP THE BAY AREA...PRIEST CAME BACK STRONGER THEN EVER THIS IS WHEN TRUE PUNK ROCK DIED.

SO PUNK DIED OUT IN THE EARLYN 80S RIGHT WHEN THE LA METAL SCENE BEGAN TO FLOURISH AND THE BAY AREA THRASH ALSO BEGAN TO FOURISH.

IMHO PUNK CONTINUED THROUGH PUNK HARDCORE: BLACK FLAG, SICK OF IT ALL ETC LATER 90S POST PUNK OPERATION IVY,RANCID, PENNYWISE, NOFX, FACE TO FACE, STRUNG OUT, AFI, GREEN DAY, LESS THAN JAKE. THESE BANDS HAD SKA, PUNK AND HARDCORE. DURING THE 2000s POST HARDCORE CAME ABOUT INCORPORATING SCREAMO...I'M NOT SURE HOW EMO FITS INTO THIS BUT ANYWAYS...PUNK SPIRITS NOT DEAD, IT'S ATTITUDE.

"PUNK'S NOT AVAILABLE AT THE MALL, IT'S NOT CUTE, IT'S A WAY OF LIFE."-LOU KOLLER, SICK OF IT ALL

I didn't read that, but it's what punk is about. Lots of capital letters.

My advice - play Dead Milkmen songs, no one wants to hear any more hardcore punk, we want to hear more Dead Milkmen.

[Joe P]

Originally Posted by dtimke

...hardcore punk...

Hey: that just reminded me of something. Back in '83 or-so I produced a record for the Wisconsin band NOD (Nuclear Overdose). If you called them 'punk' they'd say "We're not Punk! We're Hardcore."

Since we seem to have some knowledge on the subject here -what was that about.. historically, I mean?

Joe

[Infernal Affair]

Originally Posted by CelinderMotoMan

Some would say the Sex Pistols were the originators of Punk. Wasn't Punk originated in the UK? Most of the bands that you named were americans.

Look up "MC5." Some people trace it to Iggy and the Stooges, but MC5 was probably more influential to the essence of punk music and often get the moniker "protopunk" like the Stooges. People seem to have this idea that punk music originated in England, but it's more the ideologies and "fashion" (mohawks and crap) that were established there. The music was stemmed more from Detroit and New York in the good ol US of A.

Originally Posted by RiddimKing

Like it or not, guys, what Cowsgomoo said is spot on correct. The Sex Pistols are THE iconic punk band--and Sid's total inability to play the bass is just as much a part of punk as anything else. BTW, those of us who listen to Steve Jones's "Jonesy on the Jukebox" here in L.A. know what an incredibly good musician HE is.

You are right. The Sex Pistols are the iconic punk band, but I think that they are the iconic punk band for the punk illiterate. Most people know the band, but not a lot of people knew Sid couldn't even PLAY. They just know them for their look and two songs, "Anarchy in the UK" and "God Save the Queen." Very overrated band. To me, the Ramones embody everything I see in early punk: breaking a song to its most simple form, speed, energy, etc. They just weren't as unique in their visual style (though everyone wears leather jackets in the scene partly because of them).

I love Steve Jones, but I hate him as a radio DJ. Easily one of the most boring radio personalities I've ever listened to. On the flipside, listen to Henry Rollins' show "Harmony in My Head" (named after the Buzzcocks song) on the same station! His show is terrific. I also somewhat enjoy Joe Escalante's (Vandals) morning show. For an "indie" station that calls itself Indie 103.1, they sure do have a lot of punkers working for them.

[powellmacaque]

Originally Posted by Joe P

Hey: that just reminded me of something. Back in '83 or-so I produced a record for the Wisconsin band NOD (Nuclear Overdose). If you called them 'punk' they'd say "We're not Punk! We're Hardcore."

Since we seem to have some knowledge on the subject here -what was that about.. historically, I mean?

Joe

Generally speaking:

Around 1980, (after punk basically died in the public's view) you still had your underground following of punk bands. After a while, elitist punks (namely on the American west coast and in England with bands like Crass, The Exploited, and etc) started claiming that they were more punk because of the studs or the boots or the mohawks. It started becoming a macho, "punker than thou" scene, and it still is for the most part.

On the American East Coast (DC)(think Minor Threat, Fugazi, Black Flag,) you had a bunch of kids who got together and basically said "If I want to wear a tee shirt and jeans to a show and on stage, I'm gonna wear a tee shirt and jeans. Punk isnt about clothing, its about music and revolting". And that is the reason why in the 80's there was the whole "I'm not punk, I'm hardcore" thing started happening.

Now, what was called hardcore back in the 80s and what was called punk then and now is all collectively known as hardcore punk, since these groups get along now. The new hXc hardcore is actually hardline, and thats where a lot of groups blend metal, screamo, emo, industrial, and all the other genres.

[savinggrace]

Much disinformation here. Crass and Expolited cant even be names side by side in the context that you put it. While Exploited was more about the "look" of punk and a general "f-you" attitude, Crass was saying F_You to the capitalist destructive system and be CONSTRUCTIVE by offering alternative living options and taking stuff liek the food system back into ones own hands.

And hardline barely exists anymore. Most new HxC is NOT hardline at all and hardline was a small lived trend in the early 90's. It does exist, but not in the capacity as it once did.

Punk incorprates many different elements of music and always have. Synths in the Damned, new wave in bands like Flowers in the Attic, Reggae and Dub in The Clash, no-wavish elements in later Crass. Jazzy elements in the Minute Men, Dance music in Chumbawumba.

Oh and alot of hardcore and punk scenes dont get along. Most crust punks arn't hanging out watching bands like Bane or hatebreed and most kids dancing to 100 Demons are not going to check out Witchhunt or Tragedy. Unfortunately the split in scenes are extreme and it was back in the early to late 80's that people got along and drunks sang to Youth of Today and XXX kids went to see DRI.

[powellmacaque]

Oh, and I am deeply sorry that few people can understand punk as a music with theory behind it.

It really depends on your definition of "hardcore punk", but if you're talking like Leftover Crack, The Casualties, and Anti-Flag, just listen to your drummers kick drum. A lot of punk now isn't just 8th notes, but its 16th notes with accents on the 2's and 4's (one-e-and-a-TWO-e-and-a-three-e-and-a-FOUR-e-and-a). A lot of hardcore is in a minor key, so try walking basslines, they kick ass in punk (for example, if you're playing in Am, start on the root (A), then maybe hop to an F, and walk down from the F to an E, a D, a B, and back to an A).

Try throwing in a Circle of fifths progression (which is evident in "Longview" by Green Day). A circle of fifths goes C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, D#, A#, F, and back to C.

Experiment a little, and make sure you can play both minor and major scales well, because you can just walk those up and down depending on the key.

But remember, in punk, and any kind of music, sometimes its better just to chug along and play the root of the chord your guitarist is hitting. If that gets boring, try popping the octave, but add your own flavor to it, don't take my word as the bible or anything.

Wow imagine this. I play punk/ska, and I know my theory?

[powellmacaque]

I meant to group Crass and The Exploited as far as style goes.

I know punk has always incoperated other genres, but I was talking about hardcore of today blending the heavier, more "metal" elements of it. (such as Chiodos and Senses Fail).

And really the lines are blurry as far as who doesnt get along anymore today. I'm mostly a ska kid, so I try to keep myself out of the whole "who's vs. who's" picture.

I live in a small town, and all we have around here are the old school punk kids, who also listen to new school oi and anarcho-punk (they're all in their teens and listen to The Misfits, Sex Pistols, Black Flag, The Casualties, The Exploited, DK, Minor Threat), and we have the kids who call themselves either hardline (which is probably misnamed) or hXc and they're the ones with the bandanas over their faces and long hair.

[RiddimKing]

Chris,

I actually like Jonesy as a DJ. I'm usually stuck in my car in traffic, though--so his drawling pace works for me. And I like how he's not afraid to play whatever he feels like--be it Bon Jovi, Survivor, or Nina Hagen or BeBob Deluxe. That said, I've tuned in to the Rollins show. Pretty cool: he comes up with some neat mega-obscure recordings.

The funny thing about the Ramones--and I LOVE the Ramones--is that Johnny ran them like a freaking corporation. There was almost nothing spontaneous about them, and they treated the look/sound etc like a franchise. So much for rebellion being the essence of punk (not that I think it should be..).

BTW, if you haven't seen them, there's some cool Fugazi vids on Youtube. Nice Stingray tone there, too.

Rid

[bassplaynmatt]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

Try throwing in a Circle of fifths progression (which is evident in "Longview" by Green Day). A circle of fifths goes C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, D#, A#, F, and back to C.

Wow imagine this. I play punk/ska, and I know my theory?

Yea, except you incorrectly spelled the circle of fifths C#,G#,A#

[-Sam-]

Originally Posted by bassplaynmatt

Yea, except you incorrectly spelled the circle of fifths C#,G#,A#

you didnt exactly get it right either C#, G#, D#, A#, F, C, G

[powellmacaque]

it was late and i hit the insert key...

[enigmabass]

Originally Posted by RiddimKing

The funny thing about the Ramones--and I LOVE the Ramones--is that Johnny ran them like a freaking corporation. There was almost nothing spontaneous about them, and they treated the look/sound etc like a franchise. So much for rebellion being the essence of punk (not that I think it should be..).


Rid

I somewhat agree except the ramones were so early into the genre that the "style" hasn't really evolved into what is now described as "rebellious punk" but had their own traditional style of rebellion. anything that goes against the grain of tradition is rebellious thus even though we now see them as not so punk, back then they were Outstanding to the worlds eyes. or atleast in their early days

[bassmasta05]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

Oh, and I am deeply sorry that few people can understand punk as a music with theory behind it.

It really depends on your definition of "hardcore punk", but if you're talking like Leftover Crack, The Casualties, and Anti-Flag, just listen to your drummers kick drum. A lot of punk now isn't just 8th notes, but its 16th notes with accents on the 2's and 4's (one-e-and-a-TWO-e-and-a-three-e-and-a-FOUR-e-and-a). A lot of hardcore is in a minor key, so try walking basslines, they kick ass in punk (for example, if you're playing in Am, start on the root (A), then maybe hop to an F, and walk down from the F to an E, a D, a B, and back to an A).

Try throwing in a Circle of fifths progression (which is evident in "Longview" by Green Day). A circle of fifths goes C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, D#, A#, F, and back to C.

Experiment a little, and make sure you can play both minor and major scales well, because you can just walk those up and down depending on the key.

But remember, in punk, and any kind of music, sometimes its better just to chug along and play the root of the chord your guitarist is hitting. If that gets boring, try popping the octave, but add your own flavor to it, don't take my word as the bible or anything.

Wow imagine this. I play punk/ska, and I know my theory?

wow nice post, this is exactly what i was looking for!!!! I didnt know punk walked much but most of the punk bands I listen too are simple bands that just play the root 5th and octaves, but mainly roots. (blink 182 -- amazing band but way to simple)

For everyone thats saying there isnt "punk theory" Of course there is, thats why its called theory. theory isnt law, its just a legitament approach to playing in this case "punk." Every genre has patterns and tips to go with it that can be seen in many of the artists work of that particular genre.

[closetguitarist]

i think any bassist playing anything that resembles punk ought to own alkaline trio's goddamnit. dan andriano's basslines from their more recent albums have become a lot more simple, but the early stuff was really creative, i think. im not sure how much theory you would learn from listening to it but i think even one casual listen to the bass on the album would make it clear that there's definitely much theory that can be applied to punk.

[Infernal Affair]

Originally Posted by closetguitarist

i think any bassist playing anything that resembles punk ought to own alkaline trio's goddamnit. dan andriano's basslines from their more recent albums have become a lot more simple, but the early stuff was really creative, i think. im not sure how much theory you would learn from listening to it but i think even one casual listen to the bass on the album would make it clear that there's definitely much theory that can be applied to punk.

I like Dan Andriano quite a bit, but when I first got it I had to listen to Goddamnit for awhile in order to distinguish his lines in the mix. It was more the mix than his playing, though. He's good. For more Andriano stuff people should check out Slapstick or The Falcon.

As for the Ramones debate, it's true that Johnny ran the show. But Johnny was also a Reagan lover among punks. Talk about rebelling against the rebellion. That makes him rebellious, right? At the very least he stood up for what he believed in despite getting tons of flack about it. That's still punk to me. To me punk has always been the music of suburban teenagers. That's the only reason why you have so many anti-establishment songs and so many poppy, snotty love songs side by side on the shelf. It's definitely an oxymoron that you can have some many people saying "f-you" to the government yet be such slaves to love.

[Infernal Affair]

Originally Posted by RiddimKing

I actually like Jonesy as a DJ. I'm usually stuck in my car in traffic, though--so his drawling pace works for me. And I like how he's not afraid to play whatever he feels like--be it Bon Jovi, Survivor, or Nina Hagen or BeBob Deluxe.

I love his music selection, and I think he's a great guy plus he's what made the Sex Pistols great. I just can't stand when he starts talking forever and drawling, which comes up more often than I like. Less talk, more rock please.

[Lesfunk]

Listen to Klaus Flouride!

[closetguitarist]

Originally Posted by Infernal Affair

For more Andriano stuff people should check out Slapstick or The Falcon.

amen