Question about Jamming

macdude357 · #1 06-25-2009, 01:11 PM

I had my first jamming session yesterday. I've been playing for about a year and answered an ad in craigslist for someone looking to play improv jazz.

When I got there, I realized that his idea of improv was different than mine.

My idea of improv is to start out with a basic song structure (either from a fake book or just using standard chord progressions) and improv over that. When we did that, everything sounded good and I was able to keep up.

His idea of improv is to make everything up on the fly without any structure to the song. He'd change keys and chords to "what ever sounded good". When he did that, I was totally lost.

It seems to me that even an advanced bass player would have a hard time playing along without at least knowing where the song is going chord and key wise.

My intial thought is to try and tell him that if he wants to compose on the fly, maybe it would be better if he either roughs it out on his own and then provides me with either the key/chord changes that he wants to use or at the very least let him rough it out on the fly so I can have an idea of where he wants to go and then have him start over so I can join in.

Any one else have any other suggestions?

BTW, it didn't seem to bother him when I couldn't keep up so that's not really the issue. It was more that I felt totally lost when he'd start wandering all over the place.

Thanks

mambo4 · #2 06-25-2009, 01:55 PM

unstructured Jamming with no road map will always be hit or miss. Experienced ears are the most effective way you can follow.

2 points can be used to keep up, maybe:

1.) In Jazz, the ii-V7-I change is the most common, so when the chord root changes, it most commonly will change up a fourth.

2.) any 'wrong' note is a 1/2 step away form one that's in the key, if not the chord.

so when he changes chords, just assume it's a 4th away, and if it sounds wrong, slide your root note up or down a half step...

unfortunately, there's no accounting for how close to "normal" jazz the guitarist is thinking, so itProbably wont help too much /...

WorkinOnIt · #3 06-25-2009, 01:56 PM

Glad you asked this question. I have been wondering about the definition of 'jamming' lately too.

I am a newb in the world of jamming myself. I recently joined eJamming.com a few months ago and it has been a hoot. I know what you mean about sometimes feeling lost though. Some days you just cannot seem to gel with the other player(s). Even the same player on different days can result in a different vibe/sound altogether. What usually works best though are the good 'ol 12-bar blues. Sometimes it is really nice to just callout 'Blues in A' and there you go. No trying to figure out where the guitarist is going next in every measure.

There is something to be said for spontaneity of course and getting tired of the same old chord progression, but I would agree that anything beyond cycling through 4 or 5 chord changes would involve some mind-reading capability that I sure don't possess at the moment.

You did specifically mention 'jazz improv', so I might be off-base with my comments above as my own limited experiences are not so much in the jazz vein, but blues/rock. Maybe you can talk your jamming partner into just sticking with a 2-5-1 progression for starters? I am no expert, but believe that is the most common progression in jazz.

Sparkdog · #4 06-25-2009, 02:10 PM

"When I got there, I realized that his idea of improv was different than mine"

Welcome to the world of the jam

Jamming with players you don't know can be unnerving and downright frustrating, but it also makes you develop your ear and improves your improv chops.

If this guy is going to go totally freeform you might suggest he pick a key to start and then either call out the chord changes as he moves to them or if he prefers the number system call out those changes, i.e. 2-5-1.

If he doesn't KNOW what chords he's playing you're adrift in outer space and there's not much you can do about it. The fact that he doesn't care whether you're keeping up or not might tend to indicate exactly that.

In which case I would find someone else to jam with...nothing will come of that but chaos and confusion.

SpawnofHastur · #5 06-25-2009, 02:26 PM

He could be an avant-garde cat with a taste for free jazz.

J. Crawford · #6 06-25-2009, 02:28 PM

My jams are always funk/rock based, but they are always unstructured. Or we play a song, and branch off into a jam from that.

Staying in one chord for a while is an easy way to learn. Thats what we do. Well jam in C for about 15 minutes, soloing and scales, etc. Then change to D for 15, etc, etc.

BigFetus · #7 06-27-2009, 09:35 PM

improv jam is always fun until someone records it and puts it on youtube.

Jaydin Nathan · #8 06-27-2009, 10:24 PM

Sounds like he's into a mild form of free jazz (maybe with a sense of time).

It's exactly like Mambo said, the ii-V-I is the most common progression in jazz, and keys will most likely move in fourths. This jamming experience will do wonders for your ear training, I would also recommend going to sites like www.musictheory.net and www.miles.be.

The second site has a downloadable ear training program (start with the basic one), that has many different options.

Jeff2287 · #9 07-01-2009, 01:37 PM

My advise for getting into the free-jam/spontaneous chord changes is to practice by yourself and do exactly that, randomly change chords. Go chromatic and see what happens. This is good because it will force you to think outside the box and get away from "traditional" chord changes. Do this for long enough and your ear will intuitively pick up on more and more types of chord changes, including strange ones that are more uncommon. The object here is to intuitively recognize the sound of different chord changes so that, when your jam-buddy decides to switch to a random chord, you'll have a better chance of recognizing the change intuitively and following him/her.

Stradavus · #10 07-02-2009, 05:08 PM

I probably wouldn't want to do free improvisation without a chord structure with someone the first time I'd played with them. On the other hand, I used to have a friend that I jammed with all the time and it was nearly all we did.

After you jam with people for long enough you begin to learn eachothers' styles and you will have no problem seeing where they are going with the jam when they lead, and they'll know what you're doing when you lead. To me, that's where jamming becomes really, really fun/cool.

Earthday · #11 07-03-2009, 04:18 PM

I'd say he was proving himself to be an amateur by not telling you any of his changes and expecting you be able to play a coherent bassline. He especially proved it by not caring that you weren't together. Don't think of it as "not keeping up", just think of it as not knowing the information you need to do your job. For some people they don't need that information to jam together, but that only comes after struggling for a while and building chemistry. Find someone more down to earth that's willing to do some semi-structured jams to start.

BluesBassman065 · #12 07-04-2009, 11:31 AM

Well, I do have that problem too. I mostly go to blues jams and though the tunes are "easy", sometimes the guitar or piano player changes the key and for one second I'm totally lost, then I catch it quickly.

The II-V-I is THE place to start. Also, by intervals you can get in all tunes, you should train your ear to that purpose.