Question on fretless intonation

[cjmodulus]

Well, my goal for next year is to play my fretless jazz in jazz ensemble at school. My intonation is decent already, but I've been working on fine tuning it (being ale to hear im out of tune and adjust quickly, that kind of thing).
My question for those of you who developed your intonation by playing into a tuner- what would you consider the acceptable 'margin of error'? Like, I hit a note and it says it's flat by a few cents. How flat or sharp is acceptable in a real, playing situation?
For what its worth I'm using a korg chromatic tuner. and the bass is a Warmoth with an unlined neck.
Thanks in advance.

[kesslari]

I'd suggest using your ear first and a tuner secondarily.
I can't say how many cents flat or sharp is OK - because there can be a lot of answers to that.

Some things I'd suggest:
1. Play along with music, and listen to yourself.
2. Play along with a recorded drone, and listen to yourself.
3. Play chord tones (3rds, 5ths, and octaves) against a droned open string, or (especially 5ths and octaves) against a droned fingered note.
4. Learn how to use vibrato (and the physical motion of vibrato) along with your ear to bring yourself into tune if you hit the note slightly off.

Those things are working pretty well for me.

[M.Wrenn]

How long have you been playing?

I played a fretted for six years before I really started in on fretless and my muscle memory from fretted made my intonation on fretless spot on from the get go, so if you can take that route it worked quite well for me.

But like kess said, chord tones will help you tons, especially considering you're going to be playing jazz which means walking lines and improv.

Intonation will come from muscle memory, so just practice practice practice.

[cjmodulus]

Originally Posted by M.Wrenn

Intonation will come from muscle memory, so just practice practice practice.

I was afraid of that, haha. Well, it gives me a good reason to spend more time practicing. I started in eighth grade and an now going into my junior year, but I've learned pretty quickly.
As far as muscle memory, it may be a tad difficult as my fretted basses are both 35" (I'm a five string guy) and my fretless is 34". It shouldn't be that much of a hurdle.
And kesslari, what do you use to produce these 'drones'? This seems like a method that would be really useful.
Thanks for the responses!

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

Well, my goal for next year is to play my fretless jazz in jazz ensemble at school. My intonation is decent already, but I've been working on fine tuning it (being ale to hear im out of tune and adjust quickly, that kind of thing).
My question for those of you who developed your intonation by playing into a tuner- what would you consider the acceptable 'margin of error'? Like, I hit a note and it says it's flat by a few cents. How flat or sharp is acceptable in a real, playing situation?
For what its worth I'm using a korg chromatic tuner. and the bass is a Warmoth with an unlined neck.
Thanks in advance.

How flat/sharp is acceptable depends on who's listening. Some people can't hear small errors when it's played with a large group and some can nail it when the bass is the only instrument playing. Use your ears and if you can't hear if you're off by a small amount when you play along with one instrument with fixed tuning (that's known to be accurate), you'll need to work on your ear. A few cents isn't as important if the other notes are far from what you're playing but if you're doubling another instrument that can produce low frequencies, you'll be able to hear a "beat" frequency, which is the difference in pitch, just like when you use harmonics to tune your instrument and getting the same note on two strings.

The first thing I would do is make sure the 12th and 24th fret intonation is dead nuts accurate. If you find that you constantly need to "hunt" for the notes, I would suspect that the intonation is off. If you need to mark those frets, go ahead. Then, use the markers on the edge of the fingerboard when you can. I recently bought an Ibanez fretless and it hadn't been intonated, at all. It was annoying until I made it right. It's like it became a completely different instrument.

[cjmodulus]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

How flat/sharp is acceptable depends on who's listening. Some people can't hear small errors when it's played with a large group and some can nail it when the bass is the only instrument playing. Use your ears and if you can't hear if you're off by a small amount when you play along with one instrument with fixed tuning (that's known to be accurate), you'll need to work on your ear. A few cents isn't as important if the other notes are far from what you're playing but if you're doubling another instrument that can produce low frequencies, you'll be able to hear a "beat" frequency, which is the difference in pitch, just like when you use harmonics to tune your instrument and getting the same note on two strings.

The first thing I would do is make sure the 12th and 24th fret intonation is dead nuts accurate. If you find that you constantly need to "hunt" for the notes, I would suspect that the intonation is off. If you need to mark those frets, go ahead. Then, use the markers on the edge of the fingerboard when you can. I recently bought an Ibanez fretless and it hadn't been intonated, at all. It was annoying until I made it right. It's like it became a completely different instrument.

I found this pretty helpful. I had the bass set up a while back, but given the changing weather (and the giant heat wave that gust hit us) another one might not hurt. It seems like i'm off to a good start on working on my intonation. thanks for responding.

[kesslari]

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

And kesslari, what do you use to produce these 'drones'? This seems like a method that would be really useful.
Thanks for the responses!

Easiest is to let an open string sound, and then play chord tones (it's easiest to hear if they're in tune - if 3rds, 5ths, or octaves are off you'll hear it) on another string.
You can also hold a fingered note, and let it drone while you play the fifth or octave (or third for that matter).

[fdeck]

How "in tune" do we actually play? There was a thread on this subject in the DB forums a while back.

My view on developing intonation is this: Better intonation comes from consistent technique. When I notice that I'm playing notes out of tune, I slow down and look at what I am doing wrong with my technique. Then I work on those problems.

So, for me, it's not just a matter of spending lots of time at it, and hoping that it improves, but working on specific improvements.

[Billnc]

I would not recommend too much work with a tuner, this is a listening art. I've heard awful fretless players but for the most part I think there is too much worry, to the point it may shut one down mentally. Learn your intervals and how they sound in tune. Test them to open strings.

I took only one bass to today's gig, fretless, and the club was very dark. I started off wondering what I got myself into. I like to look down when I get in trouble. Everything was fine, the bandleader even said "You played that all night?" "Cool"

Muscle memory is as crucial as listening.

[Pacman]

The great thing about fretless bass is that it actually allows us to be MORE in tune than a tuner (or frets) will allow. Thirds, particularly, are a compromise in just intonation whereas on a fretless you can adjust them microtonally and play them perfectly.

Billnc is right - listening is the crucial thing.

[cjmodulus]

Thanks again for the responses. I've been working on the intervals using open string drones and it's been helping. I've also been using a keyboard, playing a note and matching it on the bass.
Gotta love talkbass. When there aren't arguments over tone and metal, it's really a great resource!
Thanks again.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

Thanks again for the responses. I've been working on the intervals using open string drones and it's been helping. I've also been using a keyboard, playing a note and matching it on the bass.
Gotta love talkbass. When there aren't arguments over tone and metal, it's really a great resource!
Thanks again.

Pacman is correct on 3rds, they are very important/interesting. I play with some good slide guitarists, they tune aurally to an open chord. I find it easier to play in tune on fretless to them. Even up to 2 players on slide instruments,(oil can guitar an legit slide)

[251]

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

Well, my goal for next year is to play my fretless jazz in jazz ensemble at school. My intonation is decent already, but I've been working on fine tuning it (being ale to hear im out of tune and adjust quickly, that kind of thing).
My question for those of you who developed your intonation by playing into a tuner- what would you consider the acceptable 'margin of error'? Like, I hit a note and it says it's flat by a few cents. How flat or sharp is acceptable in a real, playing situation?
For what its worth I'm using a korg chromatic tuner. and the bass is a Warmoth with an unlined neck.
Thanks in advance.

Here is an article & exercise I have found useful;
Fretless Bass with Yves Carbonne : Melodic Exercice for Intonation and Technique | Bass Musician Magazine [the face of bass]