Question on incorporating the ring finger in...

[Psycho]

So, i've made a recent decision to incorporate my ring finger into my playing, and make it a part of my technique.

Does anyone have any tips on ways to help adjust, and more importantly, how to strengthen it? I know it's the weakest finger, but are there any exercises or such I can do to help strengthen and coordinate it?

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Are you referring to your plucking hand or your fretting hand?

[Jazzdogg]

If you're talking about your "plucking" hand, practice playing simple rhythmic figures, with a metronome, using only your ring finger. Then try playing something simple that uses more than one string using only your ring finger; doesn't have to be anything special - a straight-four walking line, or even scales, would be a good starting point.

When you feel comfortable keeping good time using only your ring finger, start alternating two fingers, e.g., I-R, M-R.

From there, try playing triplets, one beat per finger, on the same string.

When you're comfortable using all three fingers, in time, mark-up the sheet music you usually use for private practice and notate various right-hand fingerings that involve all three fingers. Figure out which fingerings work best for you when playing figures that require you to move laterally across all of the strings; some fingerings work better going "up" the strings, and others work better when going "down" the strings.

The thing that causes most of my students to stumble isn't technique, but self-discipline; the human tendency to play what feels good, things they're already good at, and things that they hope will impress their friends, instead of focusing on the things that need the most work. There's no known shortcut that makes it unnecessary to put in the time and do the work.

Good luck!

[Psycho]

Thanks guys! I'm referring to plucking, I already use all four on the fretting. I can't read music and such, but i'll look up the tabs for some scales, maybe play along with some simple songs to help get a good feel.

Jazzdogg, what do you mean by going "up" and "down" on the strings? Do you mean going from a lower string up to a higher one, and vice versa? Just trying to clarify. Thanks again!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Psycho

So, i've made a recent decision to incorporate my ring finger into my playing, and make it a part of my technique.

Does anyone have any tips on ways to help adjust, and more importantly, how to strengthen it? I know it's the weakest finger, but are there any exercises or such I can do to help strengthen and coordinate it?

One of the first things you do is understand the way the three fingers interact and stick to it.

There 3 are main ways to play 3 finger plucking style.

1/ Following, which can be ring middle index or index middle ring. As the name suggests the finger follows from left to right or right to left. This will move the 1 about
2/ Alternate, which is ring, middle, index, middle, ring, or index, middle, ring, middle, index which leaves the 1 on the starting finger.
3/ Occasional, which is a basic two finger technique in which the 3rd finger joins in when ever required, again this leaves you free from worrying about the one and threrfore where the two falls and is the technique I mainly use as it is easy adaptable.

There are of course styles that use the thumb but any good book on guitar/banjo finger picking will give you relevent information to develop that point, as well as 4 and 5 finger styles. I see it as not trying to force any sort of finger sequence as such, which is why i play 3 finger occasional, this allows me to use whatever fingers in what ever order to suit what i want to play. I know that some players want a sequenced style so the information here explains some of the ideas of it and how best to achieve it. Fingering is about playing, not sequence, to much focus on sequence really is missing the point.

So which one is best suited to a player, just tap your iners out on a table like a horse galloping and see what works best. If starting on the little finger/ring finger side is fast and easy the that is you starting on the ring finger and vica versa. Go with what is natural, develop and enhance it.

Anyone of the three is good so long as you get past thinking about them, and that is the problem....thinking to much on the technique.

Key to fingers;
I = index finger
M= middle finger
R= ring finger

When using the fingers for 3 finger alternating do not call them index middle or ring. As you will be counting to let your brain understand what you want to control, call them 1 and 2.
That is "1" for the first finger, "and" for the second finger usually the middle, "2" for the third finger used. Regardless of whether you start on the index finger or the ring finger the "and will always link the two via the middle finger. So it becomes 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 etc. You will find you brain recognises and relates this method better than trying to name or watch fingers, as counting them off is part of the exercises that come. So as you play regardless of what finger you start on the constant round of 1 and 2 and 1 and 2....works forwards and backwards because the brain accepts one and two and one and two as a forward motion only because take out the "and" and all you count is 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2, which is far more readily to use than 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1....etc.

Some player have a problem in their fretting hand as they will develop the habit of following the fretting fingers to the plucking fingers and can't separate the two for a while. Tap it out on the table for 10 mins. a day or as a warm up and you will notice a difference in whatever one you choose. The visual reference of seeing both hands work is a good one to keep track of what is actually happening.

Try developing the occasional and just blend in more 3rd finger as you progress.
As for me I was trained in brass instruments as a kid, so the use of my three fingers in valve work stood me in good test, I had no problems when I started to play bass, my fingers just done it, I was my fretting hand that was the problem.
Its about sorting out your brain rather than the fingers, as said practise makes perfect

In three finger techniques you will find it easier to find the two or the "and" in all the different styles of play, so it follows that the even numbers will always show you a relation to where you are.

E.G.
if i play a three alternating finger style of I-M-R-M-I-M-R etc. if i count one two though it all, the two will always fall on the middle finger. If i count one two three four, the two will always fall on the even numbers. This is true regardless of whether i start on the forefinger or the ringfinger...the two (therefore the middle finger) will always be on the even numbers. That is why the reality of counting 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 works for the fingers. If you understand the relationship then you can apply technique, the technique is to count 1 and 2 and 1 and 2 and so on to achieve I-M-R-M-I-M-R-M- or the 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 to show the odd numbers and even numbers.

In a following three finger stye of I-M-R-I-M-R-I-M-R etc see the two appear in every other one of three on the middle finger and threfore on the even number every other one in the group of three.

In both of these examples tap out on a table and count out the beats and relate them to the fingers. You will soon see the relationship to the examples above.
This is harder than it seems beause the brain and the hand must co-ordinate their actions. if you cannot work it out on the table where you can see both hands it will be so much harder to do this on a bass where you cannot.

I apply it to scales i play them using a three finger alternating technique. I start at the 12th fret on the E sring and run a major and a minor patten scale up and down counting as i go to ensure the two stays on the even numbers. After you get this it becomes part of the sub-concious, it needs little more in developing but practice to maintain it, as do all these techniques.

As said its all about where the 2 goes but it is the 1 that we need to start. As you can appreciate 3 into 4 does not go, 3 in to 8 does not go, but 3 in 12 does. As stated about the 2, you will see that a 2 goes in to the 6 and 12 the same as a 3 does.
In following 3 finger style the 1 is on the move because of this.

I will show the 1 using the lower case letter in a following finger style uses.

r- M- I- R- m- I- R- M- i- R- M- I- and back to 1 then repeat.

As you can see the one will now returned to the ring finger on the next beat. Following finger style just means the fingers follow left to right or right to left, it does not matter it is what the player feels comfortable with. In this situation you need to practice slow simple scales and follow the progress of the 1. Now this will entail getting your brain involved and it will get in the way and it will take time. Tapping out on the table is a good exercise but with two hands.

Use the 3 fingers of the plucking hand against the 4 fingers of the fretting hand.
Starting right to left so it is, (reverse for left to right)
ring with index finger
middle with middle finger
index with ring finger
ring with little finger
middle with index finger
index with middle finger
ring with ring finger
middle with little finger
index with index finger
ring with middle finger
middle with ring finger
index with little finger
and now you back at the start to repeat.

3 finger alternate has you playing
R-M-I-M-R-M-I-M-R-M-I-M-R etc so the 1 will not move this time as it did in the following 3 finger technique, in this one the one stays where it starts.

r- M- I- M- r- M- I- M- r- M- I- M- etc

So the 1 stays where it started.
Use the 3 fingers of the plucking hand against the 4 fingers of the fretting hand.
Start right to left so it is
ring with index finger
middle with middle finger
index with ring finger
middle with little finger
ring with index finger
middle with middle finger
index with ring finger
middle with little finger
ring with index finger
middle with middle finger
index with ring finger
middle with little finger
and now you back at the start to repeat.

In both the following and alternate techniques it is up to the individual as to which side of the hand they start. If they prefer starting on the index finger then that is fine, if they start on the ring finger that is fine, if they wish to mix them between hands that is also fine. When using both hands go with what is natural between the two hands. You have to divide 3 into 4 is both habd are used correctly. is you use 3 fingers on each hand this will not be so much of a problem.
The best way to make this decision on which side of the plucking hand to start on is to tap the fingers on the table and see which way is the best. It Is usually from the ring finger side of the hand for most but not always. Look for power and speed in the dexterity of the movements as you compare. Also look at which one will be the easiest to develop.

Obviously time sigs. that divide by 3 and triplets are easy because of the way the are constructed to build in 3s.
Time and patience is the key and getting the brain around it, not the fingers but the brain.

In occasional 3 finger, as the name suggests it just joins in when needed, this is the style I use. It is just an alternating 2 finger technique or Index and Middle and the 3rd comes in for triplets or reaches across the strings, syncopation, or I go 3 finger for a dedicated time or when I change my fingerings.
I will change fingerings to Index and Ring for some things, or use my Index and Middle together for an upright bass feel, and use the Ring finger in that style when needed.
For me my two finger style starts on the index, but my 3 finger, if I use it dedicated for a song, will start on the ring finger, so don’t worry about things and force them, go with what’s natural and enhance what is already there, rather than learn a completely new direction, your brain might not agree.

I do not agree that strict alternation pattern is desirable in playing, all the above info will help those that wish to develop it, but i do not use it as such. I use my index middle or ring finger in any order to suit what i am playing, i can strictly alternate if i want that effect or just go with what comes natural to the music, normally it is what is natural to the music.

[Psycho]

Wow, that was a lot for my brain to chew on.

I've found that as I followed one of your tips, and only counted in my head "one two one two one two..." and so on, I lost the gallop feel that I used to get from my head sequencing them as a set of three. Granted, I can still gallop with three fingers or two, but being able to shut off that counting in a set of three helped loads.

Thanks!

[Jazzdogg]

Originally Posted by Psycho

<SNIP>Jazzdogg, what do you mean by going "up" and "down" on the strings? Do you mean going from a lower string up to a higher one, and vice versa? Just trying to clarify. Thanks again!

Yes. Moving up, from the E, across the strings, to the G. or vice versa.

[onosson]

I find that not "allowing" myself to use either my index or middle finger, and substituting the ring finger for that finger, has increased its strength and dexterity tremendously. I also try and do the same for the pinky occasionally, though it's a little more difficult to manage.

I read an interview with John Entwistle where he claimed that he would allow himself the use of only one finger for an entire night, alternating on different nights - including his pinky! Not sure if that's true, but I got my inspiration from that. I don't go for the whole night thing, but sometimes for a whole set.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by onosson

I find that not "allowing" myself to use either my index or middle finger, and substituting the ring finger for that finger, has increased its strength and dexterity tremendously. I also try and do the same for the pinky occasionally, though it's a little more difficult to manage.

I read an interview with John Entwistle where he claimed that he would allow himself the use of only one finger for an entire night, alternating on different nights - including his pinky! Not sure if that's true, but I got my inspiration from that. I don't go for the whole night thing, but sometimes for a whole set.

Sort of a good idea..if the finger is weak,but there are much better and safer ways to exercise any individual finger that needs it. The problem is identifying what the weakness is and why it is weak.
Putting extra stress and strain on a weak finger is never a good idea. Hand and finger problems tend to be like blowing up a balloon, you only realise you have gone to far when it bursts. So you can do lots of things with hands and fingers and think you are doing well, then the problem that has been building happens...out of no where.

Anyone looking to work on adding a finger/fingers, try this, practise and play within the limits of the weakest finger. Think about that......rather than make a weak finger work harder, make the dominant fingers work easier, bring the dominant fingers down, rather than weaker ones up.
The very fact that you should be working slow and deliberate on exercising and training the fingers, then the dominant fingers need to come down, the dominant fingers need to learn not to dominate but compliment.
As kids we have all run three legged races i would assume...you and a mate stand side by side with your inside legs tied together...making "three legs". Well if you want to succeed in this race the dominant runner has to come to the weaker one, not the weaker one "man up". In this race you will trip over each other if the dominant runner does not come down to the weaker level....the same applies to the fingers, the dominant ones will trip over the weaker ones.

So slow it down, work to the level of the weakest finger/fingers, and bring all of them up speed as a unit, because that is the result we want, all fingers working as an equal unit......no dominance requred.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Psycho

Wow, that was a lot for my brain to chew on.

I've found that as I followed one of your tips, and only counted in my head "one two one two one two..." and so on, I lost the gallop feel that I used to get from my head sequencing them as a set of three. Granted, I can still gallop with three fingers or two, but being able to shut off that counting in a set of three helped loads.

Thanks!

And that is the idea of helping the brain work out what is going on....to make it an action of not thinking about doing it, just doing it. It happens in just about all aspects of life.....i bet you keyboards typing skills prove that......no longer looking for letters, just hitting them.
There comes a time when you are looking at the screen not the keys and a friend says "wish i could do that"..."do what" you answer..."look at the screen when i type"...........then you become aware that you are doing it because it just happened, you were not thinking about it or developing it, it just happend.

Maybe not pro PA or secratary standard, because they do focus on it when they learn to type so they are looking for improvement to justify what they are learning. Same thing happens in playing, you focus on looking for improvements, so you become aware of what you are doing. That is a bad move...never look for the improvements, trust that what you are doing will give you the result if you keep doing the work, take a leap of faith and internalise the movements slowly, so all that happens is time will make them faster, smoother because the thinking of how i'm doing it part is removed and replace with doing it, leaving the brain free to think on other things like maybe reading music, listening to the others around you, or as i do talk to the drummer.....they hate that you know..LOL

[onosson]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

So slow it down, work to the level of the weakest finger/fingers, and bring all of them up speed as a unit, because that is the result we want, all fingers working as an equal unit......no dominance requred.

Very well said. I think that is how I put it into practice myself, though I didn't word it very well.

In fact now that I think about it some more - although I started doing it rather deliberately initially (and this was well over ten years ago), at this point I probably "pull out" my ring finger when one of my other fingers (usually the middle) is getting tired, or maybe if I have a papercut or other minor injury. Sort of like having the ring finger "on the bench", and it gets called out to play for the team only now and then...

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by onosson

Very well said. I think that is how I put it into practice myself, though I didn't word it very well.

In fact now that I think about it some more - although I started doing it rather deliberately initially (and this was well over ten years ago), at this point I probably "pull out" my ring finger when one of my other fingers (usually the middle) is getting tired, or maybe if I have a papercut or other minor injury. Sort of like having the ring finger "on the bench", and it gets called out to play for the team only now and then...

I use what i call three finger occasional technique, in as much that my ring finger only gets involved when the dexterity requires it, never when speed requires it.

I do not belive in strict alternating fingers in playing, but i do when practicing.

[oniman7]

I did this out of necessity rather than training, but it helped very well. When playing 4th/8th/16th notes etc. use your ring finger instead of your middle finger. I did this when I had been playing for a couple of months and wanted to play Maiden. Those straight 8th notes throughout whole songs killed my arm, so I would use my index finger constantly and when my middle finger got tired, I would switch to the ring finger, and vice versa. If you're playing slower stuff, you can try using just your middle and ring fingers for training.

Your results may vary, but that got my middle finger up to strength. That and 3 finger rolls/triplets. I can now do rolls fairly fast.