To Rake or not to Rake

[gmahoog]

I'm sure there's been other threads about this, but I want to share my experience dealing with the subject.

I've been raking for years. Seemed like a good thing to do, but I read on Adam Nitti's site a couple of years ago not to rake. I didn't really heed the advice because it never burned me.

Lately, I've been learning "Spain" by Chick Corea and am having the hardest time getting up to speed. I also think that raking has made my right hand a bit sloppy. I rally struggle being precise.

What I discovered is I am much faster when I don't rake. The problem is, I'm so use to doing it that I don't know if I'll be able to kick the habit. I'm working on using a straight alternating finger approach but I think it will take a long time to get it out of my system.

Has anybody else experienced this? Is it just that I am sloppy with my right hand and haven't perfected raking?

[Matthew_84]

No, I'm in the exact same boat as you. I always raked, and for the last two weeks I've been trying to weed it out my playing (for the very same reasons).

It's very hard to do, because it has been my instinct for the last couple of years. And I do believe that raking helps a hand to become sloppy. I didn't realize how uncoordinated my two fingers were until I tried to sort this out, but I will be much better off, it will just take time.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

And I do believe that raking helps a hand to become sloppy. I didn't realize how uncoordinated my two fingers were until I tried to sort this out, but I will be much better off, it will just take time.

You needn't associate raking with sloppiness and having uncoordinated fingers, which you seem to be doing here. Granted, strictly alternating might help someone play rapid 16ths, but my style has evolved over the course of now 31 years, and it comprises a heavy degree of syncopation, pul-offs, hammer-ons and deadened notes. Much of this I could not do without raking, and I can assure you, it's neither sloppy nor uncoordinated.

So, if anyone wants to claim that they can play rapid 16ths (i.e., 1/4 = 140+) faster than I can, fine; so be it, you win. But if you want to talk texture and an individualistic style of which you can't say "that reminds me of...," well, bring it on. Raking works wonders for me. It actually helps groove the syncopation too. I rarely play straight 16ths.

[jmattbassplaya]

Raking isn't bad so long as you use it at the right times.

[gmahoog]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

You needn't associate raking with sloppiness and having uncoordinated fingers, which you seem to be doing here. Granted, strictly alternating might help someone play rapid 16ths, but my style has evolved over the course of now 31 years, and it comprises a heavy degree of syncopation, pul-offs, hammer-ons and deadened notes. Much of this I could not do without raking, and I can assure you, it's neither sloppy nor uncoordinated.

So, if anyone wants to claim that they can play rapid 16ths (i.e., 1/4 = 140+) faster than I can, fine; so be it, you win. But if you want to talk texture and an individualistic style of which you can't say "that reminds me of...," well, bring it on. Raking works wonders for me. It actually helps groove the syncopation too. I rarely play straight 16ths.

Such anger for someone who is accomplished as you. It's great that raking works for you but I don't understand why you would take such offense because someone stated it makes their playing sloppy. This isn't a competition.

That being said, one of the reasons I made this post was to find out if my neglect of the right hand is the real reason that I'm sloppy with the rake. Obviously it's worked for you so I think I'll try to clean up my playing with the rake before I ditch the style. It is pretty natural for me to play that way, but the string I'm raking to tends to be weak and my right hand gets out of position, especially at higher tempos.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

You needn't associate raking with sloppiness and having uncoordinated fingers, which you seem to be doing here. Granted, strictly alternating might help someone play rapid 16ths, but my style has evolved over the course of now 31 years, and it comprises a heavy degree of syncopation, pul-offs, hammer-ons and deadened notes. Much of this I could not do without raking, and I can assure you, it's neither sloppy nor uncoordinated.

So, if anyone wants to claim that they can play rapid 16ths (i.e., 1/4 = 140+) faster than I can, fine; so be it, you win. But if you want to talk texture and an individualistic style of which you can't say "that reminds me of...," well, bring it on. Raking works wonders for me. It actually helps groove the syncopation too. I rarely play straight 16ths.

Sorry, I didn't mean that raking will always make someone sloppy and make their fingers uncoordinated. I know there are many great players out there who rake and have amazing technique.

For me, however, I did find that raking seemed to confuse my fingers. For example, if I played Pink Floyd's "Money", my finger pattern would be: 1-2-2-2-2-1-2-1, then 2-1-1-1-1-2-1-2. I also noticed sometimes that I'd move up to say the E on the G string for two quick 16ths and play it with the same finger. I just felt that with strict alternating, I would take out any sort of pattern or urge where I'd use the same finger twice in a row, and I thought that this would help me towards being able to play quicker. I also found that when I slowed down the tempo and focused on strict alternating, that I had (and still somewhat have) a lot of issues with using the same finger twice, from playing on the same string, or jumping up to a higher one, even at slow speeds.

Didn't mean to generalize, I just found that that was a problem with raking for me. But when I started playing, I took very little notice of my right hand, so maybe that would have happened whether I raked or not. I just know that if I take out the urge to rake then I'll take out the urge to use the same finger twice.

EDIT TO ADD: I would like to point out that I am not working on strict alternating just to play 16ths, I'm doing it because I feel that it will be beneficial to all aspects of my playing. And I do not believe that raking improves syncopation, or the abailty to use hammer-ons, or other techniques. I do believe that to rake or to alternate depends solely on the player and what is right for them. I just wanted to share my experienced with it and I apologize for making that generalization in my initial post.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by gmahoog

I'm sure there's been other threads about this

Yep ! Here is one ...



Alternate fingers or raking does it really matter?

[gmahoog]

Originally Posted by fearceol

Yep ! Here is one ...



Alternate fingers or raking does it really matter?

Thanks for the link. Lots of good discussion there. I guess I should have looked a bit before starting this thread. I'm not sure how I missed the other thread considering it was just a couple of months ago. I must have been in the "General Instruction" section more when that thread was written. Plus I wasn't really thinking about raking at the time..

[aidan784]

I switched from raking to SA, not even sure why. When I was looking at all these great players I saw a few of them raked, I think mainly it was JimmyM making such a good case for SA.

And I am one those whom he frequently mentions who is happier with the switch. I believe Adam Nitti isn't necessarily strict alteration (look at his sweeping), I think when he mentioned it was for when you practice left hand permutations. His logic being that raking is the 'easier' (maybe?) thing to do so getting into the habit of alternating earlier on is a good idea.

Didn't take me too long to make the switch, I seem to remember I played teen town a lot, but then I still do. That was the first main one where I noticed the difference with SA being a lot cleaner and economical as opposed to raking.

I'm probably of the same opinion as Adam Neely in these matters though, 'practice SA, play whatever'.

Try picking up a three finger technique and deciding what to do there, that's where I'm at and what's confusing me!

[gmahoog]

Originally Posted by aidan784

I'm probably of the same opinion as Adam Neely in these matters though, 'practice SA, play whatever'.

I like this advice.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by gmahoog

Such anger for someone who is accomplished as you.

I wasn't angry at all. That's one problem with internet postings, the words don't always match the tone (and I don't care for smilies). In any case, I was simply responding to a blanket statement that doesn't work as a blanket statement, and I don't think that poster meant it to be taken as a blanket statement (as he has clarified), but these ideas of "absolute" get posted on the internet and suddenly "raking is always bad" comes from a drummer's mouth and then we're all in trouble.

And his statement was: "And I do believe that raking helps a hand to become sloppy." Referring not to his hand, but to any hand. Just sayin'.

Here----->

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Sorry, I didn't mean that raking will always make someone sloppy and make their fingers uncoordinated.

For me, however, I did find that raking seemed to confuse my fingers. For example, if I played Pink Floyd's "Money", my finger pattern would be: 1-2-2-2-2-1-2-1, then 2-1-1-1-1-2-1-2.

No worries.

As for Money, it's a syncopated line, so it's perfect for raking. But, when I play it I "re-load" as it were. In other words, I don't "strictly rake" as you posted (1-2-2-2-2-1-2-1), but instead, try: 1-2-2-1-1-2-1-2. This also helps to outline the articulation of the line:

da-DA-DA-da-da-da-da-DA

Contextually, the whole argument of raking vs. non-raking is a complex argument, because it depends on the direction of the line (raking is only involved in descending, unless you use your thumb), whether the line is syncopated or straight, and what type of string crossings are involved.

[gmahoog]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I wasn't angry at all. That's one problem with internet postings, the words don't always match the tone (and I don't care for smilies). In any case, I was simply responding to a blanket statement that doesn't work as a blanket statement, and I don't think that poster meant it to be taken as a blanket statement (as he has clarified), but these ideas of "absolute" get posted on the internet and suddenly "raking is always bad" comes from a drummer's mouth and then we're all in trouble.

And his statement was: "And I do believe that raking helps a hand to become sloppy." Referring not to his hand, but to any hand. Just sayin'.

Here----->

Sorry I responded to you like I did. I got home late from a Fantasy Football draft and my mind wasn't in perfect working order. I read your posts in the other thread and appreciate your contribution.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

As for Money, it's a syncopated line, so it's perfect for raking. But, when I play it I "re-load" as it were. In other words, I don't "strictly rake" as you posted (1-2-2-2-2-1-2-1), but instead, try: 1-2-2-1-1-2-1-2. This also helps to outline the articulation of the line:

da-DA-DA-da-da-da-da-DA

Very interesting...

This is a perfect example of how raking vs. SA is different for everyone. I bet you play a mean version of that line, probably better than most.

And it seems like you're very aware of what your fingers are doing, from stopping them in mid-rake and what-not. I wasn't like that at all. Whenever I descended to a lower string, I would rake. I didn't pay attention to my fingers, and when I did, I'd notice how uncoordinated they were with each other. That's likely why I wrote that blanket statement in my first post, but as soon as you pointed it out to me I realized that not training my fingers properly was the culprit.

[FretlessMainly]

Actually, I'm not very aware of them at all; after 31 yesrs, they just do what makes sense somehow. I wasn't even aware of the term "raking" until about two months or so ago when I read a thread about it here. So, I started to think about how I did things.

When I typed out the 1-2-2-1-1-2-1-2 pattern for you earlier today, I had to sit at my desk and "air-bass" it several times to figure out how I played it, and that's when it occurred to me that I don't play that pattern conciously to emphasize the flow of the Money bassline - instead my brain hears how the line should be emphasized and my fingers just end up doing what they do.

I think there's a great deal to evaluating patterns and seeing how they fall to your ears and your hands, but my approach seems to have been use whatever pattern/styles comes out to make the line sound they way you think it should.

All I can suggest is to keep at it for 20-30 more years and you'll probably feel that way too.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by gmahoog

I'm sure there's been other threads about this, but I want to share my experience dealing with the subject.

I've been raking for years. Seemed like a good thing to do, but I read on Adam Nitti's site a couple of years ago not to rake. I didn't really heed the advice because it never burned me.

Lately, I've been learning "Spain" by Chick Corea and am having the hardest time getting up to speed. I also think that raking has made my right hand a bit sloppy. I rally struggle being precise.

What I discovered is I am much faster when I don't rake. The problem is, I'm so use to doing it that I don't know if I'll be able to kick the habit. I'm working on using a straight alternating finger approach but I think it will take a long time to get it out of my system.

Has anybody else experienced this? Is it just that I am sloppy with my right hand and haven't perfected raking?

I've tried both techniques and far prefer raking. The biggest advantage of the "hammerstroke" technique is economy of motion.

For example, play an ascending pentatonic followed by a descending using raking. Watch your right hand (your plucking hand I mean) - notice how much less movement is required of the fingers in the downward direction.

The right hand has to do a lot less work overall. Even though you still have the same constraints when crossing strings upward, when descending the work load is significantly less.

Economy of motion is one of those aspects of technique that's critical for my playing, tho, so that's probably why I prefer raking. YMMV....

LS

[Epitaph04]

Just saw a video where Adam Nitti rakes. *shrugs*

[Brad Johnson]

Whatever works for you. If it's not working, fix it. Sometimes sloppy is a good vibe. Sometimes not. I play clean or sloppy. I rake. I alternate. I don't think about it. I play.


Seriously, I've had people ask me to explain how I played something and it's easiest for me to look at how I'm playing it to figure it out. And I often switch up technique while playing the same thing. I find it helps in getting a consistent sound regardless of mechanics.

I see no reason to remove raking from your skill set.

[SlapHappy99]

I use a leaf blower myself

[Jay2U]

I started picking, then I became a raker. Later on I discovered my other fingers. Now it depends, if it's just a slow riff, I may be raking without really noticing. If it becomes a little more complicated, I have to develop a strategy for both hands.