Rank heresy spoken here!

[Pilgrim]

After hearing for years about Jaco Pastorius and how he revolutionized bass playing, I bought his debut CD (the one cut in 1976). I figured that other than a couple of cuts of his that I'd heard when he was playing with Weather Report, I hadn't heard any of his stuff, so I ought to hear the definitive album of this deceased genius.

I gotta say that I'm not all that impressed. Yes, his playing is impressive. Fast, facile, and somewhat expressive. And it really leaves me cold.

The whole album is the kind of jazz I refer to as "noodly-noodly", where everyone is kind of playing around and not necessarily going anywhere. Just ongoing noodly-noodly-noodly.

I WAS impressed when I heard Dave Brubeck playing "Take Five", and "Unsquare Dance", and "Blue Rondo Ala Turk". I was REALLY impressed with I heard the Don Ellis orchestra on the Electric Bath album in the late 60's. Absolutely incredible stuff in wild time signatures (catch a listen at the link)!!

But neither of those are noodly-noodly stuff. They have a definite beat, direction and the music makes a statement.

And after listening to the Jaco album, I remember that Weather Report primarily impressed me as elevator music. Nice stuff to have in the background, but not obtrusive and not all that attention-getting. Not my cup o' tea. Mostly not noodly-noodly, but nothing to get excited about.

You want to hear a bass line that impresses me? Listen to Jerry Scheff's bass line on The Doors' L.A. Woman. THAT'S impressive...its much more what I aspire to play.

So I'll tip my hat to Jaco as a guy who played "cool stuff", but it wasn't my stuff and it wasn't anything I'm interested in playing.

[BassChuck]

I can dig what you are saying. But I love them both. In fact, I'm taking time out right this minute from setting up a score to "In A Turkish Bath" (I just got xeroxs of the band parts Ellis used and I've just got to see what this looks like in full score).

Anyway, what you are hearing (IMHO) are two very different kinds of jazz. Don Ellis and his writers were creating a full band kind of jazz experience with all the nuances of orchestration and tone color that a large group can put out (check out "Tears of Joy" for a real look at this concept). Ellis' music depends on the ensemble doing its thing together to present the concept. Sure there are good soloists, and Don is head and shoulders above all of them... BUT the quality and main presentation of Don Ellis' music is the Band, any group of fine musicians could do the job. Same thing is true for Stan Kenton and many others.

Jaco's music is soloist oriented. You really need his bass playing to make it happen... not just any bass player, you need Jaco. The main presentation there is his ability to play and interpret the material. Sure there are plenty of players that are imitating his playing... but they usually don't come up with anything new, just a (hopefully) good attempt at copping his licks.

[lamarjones]

whoa dude, you had EXPECTATIONS that is was gonna be the biggest thing since slice bread. Take it for what it is, even if it ain't exactly what you were looking for, you yourself stated there were some cool things in it.

"Yes, his playing is impressive. Fast, facile, and somewhat expressive. "

And try to remember that not everyone gets the same thing out of different tunes as others.

I completely hear you on what you are saying, but I listen to a lot of things that aren't really exactly what I dig, but I know how to pull the positives out of these things and go about my buisness. fine if you don't want to, but then again why even try to expand horizons if you aren't gonna be in that mode?

fwiw. i get that elavator feeling as well

[Pacman]

That was my experience, too, when I first heard Jaco.

Years later, after tons more education, I listened again, and fell in love. When I first heard him, I didn't understand the music. When I understood more, I heard more. When I heard more, I liked it.

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by Pacman

That was my experience, too, when I first heard Jaco.

Years later, after tons more education, I listened again, and fell in love. When I first heard him, I didn't understand the music. When I understood more, I heard more. When I heard more, I liked it.

Same here. Jaco's CD went on the shelf til I was playing for a couple years. Then when I popped it in again, I couldn't get enough.

[Pilgrim]

Yeah, I may have had expectations that didn't match the style of music I heard on that CD. Fact is, that style has never been something I enjoyed...nor do I have any ambition to play like that.

I played bass from 1964-73, and took it up again in 1998 - maybe with another 20+ years' exposure to that style I'll become fond of it!

[lowerclef]

Now, now, kids. Let's play nice.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by lowerclef

Now, now, kids. Let's play nice.

No kidding! The bashing was uncalled for.

I noted in my original post that much of the civilized world is in awe of Jaco's chops. I am, too - I heard him doing stuff that I'll never be able to do. The fact that I don't care to do it and that the music doesn't move me doesn't mean that I'm not impressed with the musicianship.

For that matter, I'm sure you could name any musician and there will be people who really like - and dislike - that person's music. I've heard music I wouldn't play at a dogfight that others revere. Go figure.

[Otso]

Even 200 years ago Charles Burney (a music historian) wrote about how developed ears preferred more complex music, whereas undeveloped not musically competent ears preferred simple and repetitive music.

[Pilgrim]

"...developed ears preferred more complex music, whereas undeveloped not musically competent ears preferred simple and repetitive music."

Interesting comment, and I get the sense of it: by more exposure to music, one learns to appreciate more sophisticated and complex music.

However, his wording is rather crude and (by implication) insulting, though not unusual for something written that long ago. In Burney's time (1726-1814) it was OK to look down on anything thought to be simple and "lower class". He probably wouldn't consider many of us to be "musically competent".

If the essence of his assertion is true, I'm not sure to what degree it transfers from one genre to another. I've played a fair amount of classical music (Handel's Royal Fireworks is a particular favorite) and enjoy it. Most would probably agree that that kind of music is reasonably complex. However, my appreciation doesn't transfer to the Jaco/Weather Report style jazz...which is reasonably complex jazz, and respected by many.

I just don't like it or enjoy listening to it.

[lamarjones]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

"...developed ears preferred more complex music, whereas undeveloped not musically competent ears preferred simple and repetitive music."

Interesting comment, and I get the sense of it: by more exposure to music, one learns to appreciate more sophisticated and complex music.

However, his wording is rather crude and (by implication) insulting, though not unusual for something written that long ago. In Burney's time (1726-1814) it was OK to look down on anything thought to be simple and "lower class". He probably wouldn't consider many of us to be "musically competent".

If the essence of his assertion is true, I'm not sure to what degree it transfers from one genre to another. I've played a fair amount of classical music (Handel's Royal Fireworks is a particular favorite) and enjoy it. Most would probably agree that that kind of music is reasonably complex. However, my appreciation doesn't transfer to the Jaco/Weather Report style jazz...which is reasonably complex jazz, and respected by many.

I just don't like it or enjoy listening to it.

I think there has always been a little snobbery when it comes to the 'elevated' tastes in art. I think visual arts, and hell fashion comes to mind as well. Many people can verbalize what they are thinking with a sense of humility, but a lot of people can't. We've had people on this fourm demonstrate the latter!

I hear you on the second part, there are definitely some things that I know are completely complex and awesome to others, and yet I could not care less. I TRY to not bash them, maybe even listen to it once or twice to take soemthing from it. I think humans in general have a hard time appreciating something that is foreign to them (to the point where certain beliefs have worked it into their system), just listen to how many stories of this and that in all aspects of life start with "I hated it at first, but then man I really got into it!". I mean, even in america, I hear this about sushi ALL THE TIME!!! (not music related, but as I said, it applies to all aspects of life)

[groove pump]

Flash: music lover wears diapers!

I have a little nephew who just turned three. He's got this constant jones for music (LOVES the theme to the Sopranos) and I'll never forget the biggest belly laugh I've had in recent years. A while back, the little dude had just figured out how to stand on his own and was playing with this Sesame Street desk that does all these sounds and songs. He turns on the alphabet song and starts just rockin' out! I laughed all the air out of my lungs.

Lesson learned: whatever really hooks you - so be it. My Jaco disc spends most of its time gathering dust (along with my fretless) because it doesn't hook me. I respect the hell out of it, but I don't particularly need it compared to the stuff that gives me spontaneous momentum.

...thank you for your attention...

[Winterpegbass]

Everyone has their own particular taste in music. I like Opus Pocus, Portrait of Tracy and Come on Come over off of Jaco's first solo album but my favorite stuff is on Weather Report's Heavy Weather and Black Market albums. I've been listening to and learning Jaco's basslines for 20 years and I still enjoy them.

That being said, Jaco's music may not be for everyone. I don't care for metal or country music and I'm constantly amazed at how many talkbass bloggers are into faith/worship music but that's what they like.

I guess it's fun to be a little immature and say things like "disco is gay" or "metal is for the retarded" or "jazz sounds like the band fell down a flight of stairs while they were playing". Makes for entertaining reading as long as it doesn't get too venomous.

[Infernal Affair]

Originally Posted by Otso

Even 200 years ago Charles Burney (a music historian) wrote about how developed ears preferred more complex music, whereas undeveloped not musically competent ears preferred simple and repetitive music.

Then it comes full circle again and the highly educated get burned out on complex music and start to play seemingly simple music and get lauded for it because it's "new." This happens a lot in the visual arts as well.

I admire lots of artists out there and appreciate their contributions to music, but you'll probably never see me play their music on a regular basis because it never does anything for me despite being more complex than what I normally listen to. It always surprises me how much feeling can be packed into so little sometimes, and sometimes I think those artists fail to realize that. But their contributions are very important to music as a whole.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Infernal Affair

Then it comes full circle again and the highly educated get burned out on complex music and start to play seemingly simple music and get lauded for it because it's "new." This happens a lot in the visual arts as well.

I appreciate that, Chris. As I said above, I enjoy classical (and as it happens, I have a Ph.D., which means I'm some kinda educated, probably in things that don't matter to anyone else) - but I play in a surf band. I won't claim surf music is complex (don't wanna get laughed outa the place) but it sure is fun to play!

[JimmyM]

I was wondering when the next "Jaco sucks" thread would start. Usually it takes a month. This one was a little late.

[Pilgrim]

Wrong. Not "Jaco sucks". Never was, not intended to be.

Try instead: "Jaco leaves me cold."

BIG difference.

[JimmyM]

What's the difference?

[Otso]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

If the essence of his assertion is true, I'm not sure to what degree it transfers from one genre to another. I've played a fair amount of classical music (Handel's Royal Fireworks is a particular favorite) and enjoy it. Most would probably agree that that kind of music is reasonably complex. However, my appreciation doesn't transfer to the Jaco/Weather Report style jazz...which is reasonably complex jazz, and respected by many.

I just don't like it or enjoy listening to it.

I was just pouring gas, hoping to start a fire.

But how can the complexity of music be defined? To my ears 3 notes can sound more complex than a 3 octaves of a major scale.

[BellBottomBlues]

I believe I started the last "I hate Jaco" thread and I still stick to my guns. I got bored to tears.