is this right?

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

You missed my point, spade. 'Simpletons' are far more employable than wannabe 'stars.' If you don't care about the possibility of actually making a living playing, shred away, friend. Sure, you might get very, very lucky and become one of a handful of 'chops' bassists who 'make it.' And I do wish you luck, really. If that's what you like, go for it. I am more ordinary and thus get lots of work. I enjoy being an ordinary bassist-I really like playing bass in it's 'normal' role.
No, you probably haven't heard of me. But you might. I'm on a CD that recently was featured on itunes for a week, in New Releases. I've worked with some heavy people that you definitely HAVE heard of.

Again, it's basic statistics. Being a conformist might get you a 2-maybe-10 chance in a million, but the bottom line will always be that the true odds of making it big are slim, thus who cares?

Simpleton bassists are more appealing to whom? Keep in mind most people don't notice what a bassist does, as long as we don't hit honkers and hold down some bottom end. The funny thing is that these debates go from your basic bassist to Victor Wooten or Billy Sheehan in a hurry. There's a very tasty slice of middle ground that seems mostly ignored.

You may or may not notice that I always keep "shred" in quotation marks. Why? The times I had been accused of shredding, I didn't consider it shredding. For the most part, the word has such a negative connotation because heaven forbid there's someone who has amazing chops. Besides, the legends (at least in their own mind) don't always know music as much as they claim. A guy who barely knows what notes are on the fretboard is telling me what has groove. Anyone see a problem with that?

Usually people tell me the way to make it big is to play the same bass as everyone else, have the same tone as everyone else, and the same chops as everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like you're walking into a position where you're amazingly replaceable.

The key is to find a band that suits YOUR needs. MY needs and YOUR needs may indeed vary. It's all about matching the right style and tone to a given genre. Try playing punk bass in a band like Bella Fleck and the Flecktones. Victor Wooten might get the hairy eye in a band like Son Volt. Fieldy might struggle in a band that........tunes. Come on, this isn't rocket science.

[dmusic148]

You missed my point AGAIN. I said EMPLOYABLE. I'm talking about making a living, you are talking about making it big. Totally different. If you play 'normal' bass really well your chances of making a decent living at it are really quite good. But no matter how you play, your chances of 'making it big' are really quite bad.
Replaceable? Depends on your style, and especially your attitude. I know for a fact that I've replaced dudes with more chops than me because they were dicks to work with.
Again, if you would like to do things with the bass that are beyond 'the norm', I congratulate you-I truly do. I have immense respect for those who do that well and manage to maker a career of it, or not.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

You missed my point AGAIN. I said EMPLOYABLE. I'm talking about making a living, you are talking about making it big. Totally different. If you play 'normal' bass really well your chances of making a decent living at it are really quite good. But no matter how you play, your chances of 'making it big' are really quite bad.
Replaceable? Depends on your style, and especially your attitude. I know for a fact that I've replaced dudes with more chops than me because they were dicks to work with.
Again, if you would like to do things with the bass that are beyond 'the norm', I congratulate you-I truly do. I have immense respect for those who do that well and manage to maker a career of it, or not.

But what about the middle ground? You know, having the chops to tear it up and knowing when to use them. There are plenty of guys who do that. You're making it a black and white issue, which it doesn't need to be. Then you mention that you've replaced guys with more chops who were dicks to work with. Are you saying that all players with incredible chops are difficult to work with?

I recently moved out of NYC where there are tons of "meat and potato" bassists. Funny thing is, the guys with the chops are actually better all around musicians. I know this one cat who can play Be-Bop lines better than most saxophonists, but he plays some of the best walking lines that most cats love to have behind them. The "meat and potato" guys DO have a lot going on for them when it comes to chops. They just have the taste to use them with care.

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

You missed my point AGAIN. I said EMPLOYABLE. I'm talking about making a living, you are talking about making it big. Totally different. If you play 'normal' bass really well your chances of making a decent living at it are really quite good. But no matter how you play, your chances of 'making it big' are really quite bad.
Replaceable? Depends on your style, and especially your attitude. I know for a fact that I've replaced dudes with more chops than me because they were dicks to work with.
Again, if you would like to do things with the bass that are beyond 'the norm', I congratulate you-I truly do. I have immense respect for those who do that well and manage to maker a career of it, or not.

Employable is a very geographically operative word. Where I'm from, you can make a career playing gigs, but you had better have another career if you want to make rent/mortgage. Most of the professionals I know spend every Friday and Saturday night playing someone else's tunes and the rest of the week working at a music store. If I did that, I wouldn't be able to cover all monthly expenses. Still, most of the music majors I knew (vocal performance, and other non-rock band types) were working at Wal-Mart.

[dmusic148]

No, I am NOT saying all guys with chops are dicks. I am saying that it has happened, and that chops are not as important as taste.
Sure, MOST great M&P players have good chops, myself included.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be an 'art' player. Just as there is nothing wrong with being a plain old M&P player.
And of course there is room to be both together-I never implied otherwise.
I am simply stating the obvious-that it's easier to eat when you are tasteful, melodic, and solid. SOLID.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by spade2you

Employable is a very geographically operative word. Where I'm from, you can make a career playing gigs, but you had better have another career if you want to make rent/mortgage. Most of the professionals I know spend every Friday and Saturday night playing someone else's tunes and the rest of the week working at a music store. If I did that, I wouldn't be able to cover all monthly expenses. Still, most of the music majors I knew (vocal performance, and other non-rock band types) were working at Wal-Mart.

OK, fair enough. Where I'm at, the professionals work 5 or 6 nights a week. I've done triple-headers. Don't limit yourself geographically. If you are good, really good, and want to try to live playing music, if your scene sucks you move....

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

No, I am NOT saying all guys with chops are dicks. I am saying that it has happened, and that chops are not as important as taste.
Sure, MOST great M&P players have good chops, myself included.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be an 'art' player. Just as there is nothing wrong with being a plain old M&P player.
And of course there is room to be both together-I never implied otherwise.
I am simply stating the obvious-that it's easier to eat when you are tasteful, melodic, and solid. SOLID.

I hear that, I learned it through experience. I had a teacher in college who also helped me develop my taste. I just don't like how people on this forum make black and white statements about EVERYTHING involving the bass.

[dmusic148]

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, here are some of my favorite 'name' players:
Jaco
Ron Carter
Marcus Miller
Tony Levin
Dominique DiPiazza
Anthony Jackson
Brian Bromberg
Chuck Rainey
'Duck' Dunn
Hamish Stuart
Paul McCartney
Pino Palladino
Tony Franklin
Colin Edwin
Victor Wooten
Stanley Clarke



I'll add more later.

[JAUQO III-X]

Ralphe Armstrong is very much alive and well. Living in Detroit and still playing.


This is from a show that was scheduled earlier this year in Detroit(that was canceled).

http://www.detroitbassfest.com/

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

If you are good, really good, and want to try to live playing music, if your scene sucks you move....

Perhaps some day. I'd think the big step of selling my house might be a bit of a challenge considering the economic slump. Too much family, friends, brewing, road racing, etc. I've also gotten myself in a pretty strong position with my job that I should definitely hold on to, at least long enough to pay off student loans, a house, and a car. Basically, my wages are pretty nice and cost of living one of the lowest in the US.

Regardless, my scene is in a bit of a slump most likely due to a severe drummer shortage. Things could improve....perhaps get worse. Most scenes have an ebb and flow, so I'll assume things may pick up sometime. I'm very willing to leave my music to chance, but my paycheck needs to be a guarantee.

I'm intrigued by your list of favorite bassists as I don't think I'd consider someone like Tony Franklin, Jaco, or Pino to be a M&P player. IMHO, those are the types of players to emulate because they can splice their own signature style into most types of music and sneak in enough signature to leave little doubt who is playing that part. Sometimes ya gotta be crafty to figure out a great part that doesn't offend the head honcho.

[dmusic148]

Totally with you, man. I like EVERYTHYING. I don't think we got off to a very good start, misunderstanding. Yes, they are sneaky. Pino on 'Down at the sunset grill' was my first exposure to fretless-bought one soon after. Jaco on Joni Mitchell's 'Mingus'....wow. I forgot Chris Squire.
I guess my position is, nail the fundamentals first, so they are always available. The other stuff is gravy, and has to be very, very good to get hired for it. I mean, the OP sounds kind of unsure, so I'm just suggesting if he's getting yelled at, maybe what he's doing isn't cool. Rock on.....

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Totally with you, man. I like EVERYTHYING. I don't think we got off to a very good start, misunderstanding. Yes, they are sneaky. Pino on 'Down at the sunset grill' was my first exposure to fretless-bought one soon after. Jaco on Joni Mitchell's 'Mingus'....wow. I forgot Chris Squire.
I guess my position is, nail the fundamentals first, so they are always available. The other stuff is gravy, and has to be very, very good to get hired for it. I mean, the OP sounds kind of unsure, so I'm just suggesting if he's getting yelled at, maybe what he's doing isn't cool. Rock on.....

Of course nail the fundamentals, without that you aint got nutin.

[bassist 4 life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p49yndQKoFE

Heres what Billy Sheehan has to say

[Rudreax]

And here's Ralphe Armstrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIoUP-pH99I

[Bass Troll]

Originally Posted by Syph

i would like to try and figure out what ever one means by shred though. if your playing 19 notes a second running up and down scales i think we would all call that shred.

but what about a fast set of arppeggios? or filling the pianos left hand role in fast classical? what about root noting at 240bpm??

In my opinion, shredding is just a colloquial term for someone or something that is virtuosic or requires virtuosic ability to play. That being said, often things labeled as shred aren't actually all that virtuosic. Actually, there's a fair few bassist labeled as virtuosic who really aren't, such as Pastorius.
Gah, easy definition: (Again IMO), the ability to express ones self musically without limitations of technique.

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Totally with you, man. I like EVERYTHYING. I don't think we got off to a very good start, misunderstanding. Yes, they are sneaky. Pino on 'Down at the sunset grill' was my first exposure to fretless-bought one soon after. Jaco on Joni Mitchell's 'Mingus'....wow. I forgot Chris Squire.
I guess my position is, nail the fundamentals first, so they are always available. The other stuff is gravy, and has to be very, very good to get hired for it. I mean, the OP sounds kind of unsure, so I'm just suggesting if he's getting yelled at, maybe what he's doing isn't cool. Rock on.....

Very true and I now see where you're coming from. Soloing is like icing on a cake and the cake is your foundation. Nobody wants a slice of frosting.

[Michael Case]

And ones soloing is made better by our command of the basic skills that make us good rhythm section players. I'm glad we were able to actually get to this part of the discussion, because I feel this is the topic that needs discussion. I've noticed many times that people believe that you're either a good M&P player or your a soloist and miss how the two things are connected and serve each other. IME, my jazz playing is better when I'm on top of the skills needed to be a supporter and a soloist.