Right hand technique..three vs. two fingers

[21niko21]

Did a search...didn't really find anything.

As I play faster stuff (Motown, Zappa, Chic) I'm started to notice that I'm naturally using three fingers, especially for triplets. I'm also starting to rake, but since I think that's bad I'm trying to stop that. Should I continue to use three fingers or should I slow everything down and play it two finger alternating until I have it full speed? Is using three fingers without practicing specific three finger exercises ultimately going to cause problems?

[21niko21]

Does the lack of response mean I'm overthinking this?

[hyp.spec]

I say do what you want.

There are times I use one finger, two fingers and three fingers all in one song.

If you like the feel and the sound of 3 fingers, then by all means go for it.

If you want to use only 2, then use 2!

[jgroh]

Originally Posted by 21niko21

Does the lack of response mean I'm overthinking this?

I think so. As long as you are not doing something that will physically harm you (like bad technique that will result in carpal tunnel or something like that), then nothing is "wrong"...not even raking!

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by hyp.spec

I say do what you want.

There are times I use one finger, two fingers and three fingers all in one song.

If you like the feel and the sound of 3 fingers, then by all means go for it.

If you want to use only 2, then use 2!

+1,

I usually gravitate to what flows best for the purpose, 1,2,3, thumb and index +. It's a good thing to have choices that communicate the sound/fluidity/feel of whatever you are trying to achieve. SA is useful, raking is useful too, all depending on what your playing.

[21niko21]

Thanks guys, I think those years of piano lessons has made me paranoid. The low end is much more mellow.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by 21niko21

Did a search...didn't really find anything.

As I play faster stuff (Motown, Zappa, Chic) I'm started to notice that I'm naturally using three fingers, especially for triplets. I'm also starting to rake, but since I think that's bad I'm trying to stop that. Should I continue to use three fingers or should I slow everything down and play it two finger alternating until I have it full speed? Is using three fingers without practicing specific three finger exercises ultimately going to cause problems?

It is a matter of dexterity and the perception of playing faster.
Two fingers share the load better than one and of course three fingers share the load better than two etc.

Here is a great practice tip to internalise your playing.
When using to fingers it is 1-2-1-2-1-2 or left and right left and right or what ever way you play. But in using three the problem is a dominant finger looking for the beat of accent. Most of the music we hear is divisible by two so working two fingers is easy. But playing with three does present a few problems because the accent or beat is changing rather than being constant to a finger...usually the dominant one.
So when you practice say an eight note major scale count it as;

1 & 2 & 1 & 2 etc.

So the 1 is a finger, the & is a finger, and the 2 is a finger. So rather than seeing and feeling the playing a

1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 or 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1 you internalise it as 1 & 2 & 1 & 2.

So now apply that to the eight note major scale and you will now start to be aware of what finger is following what finger when you practice. So in this example you will play the scale starting on the forefinger and play up and down seemlessly

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-B-A-G-F-E-D-C

Now you will end up with the ring finger playing the last note and in effect becoming the new starting finger...so play it again and you will end back on the forefinger you started with.
now for me it makes no difference what finger you tart with because at some point you have to be comfortable starting with any finger..as the example shows the beat or accent is changing, so if you cannot exicute this exercise correctly then you will trip, rake or double hit notes to keep the beat or accent on the dominant finger.

If you just play the eight note scale up then start again you will obviously start on the same finger all the time, or if you play lots of new and following scale just going from top to bottom.
But in practising them up and down in the fashion stated you will change the accent or beat away from the dominant finger.

Once you get used to it you can practise say a C scale up and down then a G scale then a D scale then an E sacle and so one. So now you are changing positions across strings with the leading fingers. Then you can introduce playing the triads, then the arps, then the chord tones for each of these keys, then of course the Minor scales and associated extensions. Then you can play any scale from the lowest note available on the neck to the highest. So say you practise G major, you start on the E on the E string and play

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D ( standard precision neck) and back down. Learn this is all keys, learn it in different ways ( there are lots of note choices to make on the neck, open A or fretted A. C on A string 3rd fret or on the E string 8th fret for example)

All this from internalising your natural tendency to feel one two in life, just by adding the and helps you feel the three with out confusing the brain, and in these exercises it is the brain getting in the way.

Also if when playing triplets you want to play 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 then do so, harness what is natural, because in playing 1-2-3-1-2-3 it makes no difference what finger you finish on, you will just carry on with 1 & 2 & 1 again because there is no need to get back to a dominant finger. It is the favouring of a dominant finger that can tie a lot of players down in their technique when trying to learn new ideas.

Any questions this rasies post a question and i will try and answer.

[Bassorama57]

...just this. The idea is to make your brain control your fingers - so if you choose to rake; not rake, use two fingers (with index on the downbeat...or upbeat..) its because you've decided to play it that way consciously. I'll learn things 'one way' and then do them completely differently just to force my fingers to submit to my brain.

[schmig]

Two of the staple Zappa bassists played almost exclusively with a pick - Thunes and Fowler...

[jay tay]

Play however you want, I play fingerstyle, with my thumb, with a pick, whatever will give me the best sound and feel for the song.

If you want to rake the strings then do it (Jaco used to)

If we only played how we were supposed to, then their would be no new techniques, Larry Graham wouldn't have stumbled on to the slap technique, and Victor Wooten wouldn't have found the double thumb trying to imitate Larry!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by schmig

Two of the staple Zappa bassists played almost exclusively with a pick - Thunes and Fowler...

Great point, but what many fail to realise is the technique is secondary to the thinking. The pick or the finger is a choice, the players still have the ability to play bad or good using either, but the make good choices in what the play and how they represent it. (pick, finger, fingers, bow, e-bow, keyboard, acoustic bass, double bass etc )
Technique is the development of skills to enable you to play what you what, and once learned if you cannot apply it correctly to music then it will sound bad, a wrong note is a wrong note regardless of technique or the instrument used to represent it.
Within that it can be easy or hard, depending on how you are defining the technique, in the end if a player manages to play a song perfectly using 90% his skills and energy, then no one will aware if he played it using 10%, because they have played what is required..only the player knows the truth.
And so it is when the word speed or fast is used in relation to the fingers, we play to a tempo, so whether you use one or two or three fingers you will not play it faster than the tempo required. What you will do is use less effort, you will be more dexterous, it will be easier, the effort will be balanced along the hand, so both sides of the hand, therefore both sets of muscles, associated nerve paths and nerve ends, get a work out as well.

The most common fault of why players fail when they step up to the mark is they do not believe in themselves, they feel not worthy, out of their depth etc.

Shakesphere wrote,
Our doubts are traitors,
And make us lose the good we oft might win
By fearing to attempt.

Though centuries old they still ring true because in the end it is what we believe deep down within ourselves that will come to the fore in times of stress, panic, or pressure. That is why training for such situations is the number one way to combat them, to reinforce that you can cope and perform under duress.

Now its not often you will get some Shakespeare in your Bass life, but it seem the Bard understood the problems, because it is a human trait.

[Jay2U]

If I play finger style (70 %), the number of fingers involved depends on what I'm playing. Most blues songs are perfectly fit for two fingers. Some heavy metal stuff I like to rake with three fingers simultaneously. It's just whatever you prefer. The same goes for the fretting hand. Is it almost stationary, using a fixed pattern of fingers for each position, or is this hand moving about, using whatever finger is near to the next fretting position? If I'm really enjoying my playing, I'm not aware of which fingers I'm using. This is just like typing: I never know in advance which finger is going to hit the next key, but the result is a legible text.

[J-O]

Great replies, Fergie.

[21niko21]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

It is a matter of dexterity and the perception of playing faster.
Two fingers share the load better than one and of course three fingers share the load better than two etc.

Here is a great practice tip to internalise your playing.
When using to fingers it is 1-2-1-2-1-2 or left and right left and right or what ever way you play. But in using three the problem is a dominant finger looking for the beat of accent. Most of the music we hear is divisible by two so working two fingers is easy. But playing with three does present a few problems because the accent or beat is changing rather than being constant to a finger...usually the dominant one.
So when you practice say an eight note major scale count it as;

1 & 2 & 1 & 2 etc.

So the 1 is a finger, the & is a finger, and the 2 is a finger. So rather than seeing and feeling the playing a

1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 or 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1 you internalise it as 1 & 2 & 1 & 2.

So now apply that to the eight note major scale and you will now start to be aware of what finger is following what finger when you practice. So in this example you will play the scale starting on the forefinger and play up and down seemlessly

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-B-A-G-F-E-D-C

Now you will end up with the ring finger playing the last note and in effect becoming the new starting finger...so play it again and you will end back on the forefinger you started with.
now for me it makes no difference what finger you tart with because at some point you have to be comfortable starting with any finger..as the example shows the beat or accent is changing, so if you cannot exicute this exercise correctly then you will trip, rake or double hit notes to keep the beat or accent on the dominant finger.

If you just play the eight note scale up then start again you will obviously start on the same finger all the time, or if you play lots of new and following scale just going from top to bottom.
But in practising them up and down in the fashion stated you will change the accent or beat away from the dominant finger.

Once you get used to it you can practise say a C scale up and down then a G scale then a D scale then an E sacle and so one. So now you are changing positions across strings with the leading fingers. Then you can introduce playing the triads, then the arps, then the chord tones for each of these keys, then of course the Minor scales and associated extensions. Then you can play any scale from the lowest note available on the neck to the highest. So say you practise G major, you start on the E on the E string and play

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D ( standard precision neck) and back down. Learn this is all keys, learn it in different ways ( there are lots of note choices to make on the neck, open A or fretted A. C on A string 3rd fret or on the E string 8th fret for example)

All this from internalising your natural tendency to feel one two in life, just by adding the and helps you feel the three with out confusing the brain, and in these exercises it is the brain getting in the way.

Also if when playing triplets you want to play 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 then do so, harness what is natural, because in playing 1-2-3-1-2-3 it makes no difference what finger you finish on, you will just carry on with 1 & 2 & 1 again because there is no need to get back to a dominant finger. It is the favouring of a dominant finger that can tie a lot of players down in their technique when trying to learn new ideas.

Any questions this rasies post a question and i will try and answer.

Thanks! Amazing info. I will start working on this today and post any questions I have.

[topo morto]

For me, it all depends on the exact passage I'm playing... sometimes, you can get a better mute down the road by starting the passage with a different finger... you might get a better feel by staying on the same finger for all the accents, or whatever.

I say learn the best way to play particular pieces, and then let your subconscious learn the general rules, if there are any...

[jamisonsalamand]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

It is a matter of dexterity and the perception of playing faster.
Two fingers share the load better than one and of course three fingers share the load better than two etc.

Here is a great practice tip to internalise your playing.
When using to fingers it is 1-2-1-2-1-2 or left and right left and right or what ever way you play. But in using three the problem is a dominant finger looking for the beat of accent. Most of the music we hear is divisible by two so working two fingers is easy. But playing with three does present a few problems because the accent or beat is changing rather than being constant to a finger...usually the dominant one.
So when you practice say an eight note major scale count it as;

1 & 2 & 1 & 2 etc.

So the 1 is a finger, the & is a finger, and the 2 is a finger. So rather than seeing and feeling the playing a

1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 or 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1 you internalise it as 1 & 2 & 1 & 2.

So now apply that to the eight note major scale and you will now start to be aware of what finger is following what finger when you practice. So in this example you will play the scale starting on the forefinger and play up and down seemlessly

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-B-A-G-F-E-D-C

Now you will end up with the ring finger playing the last note and in effect becoming the new starting finger...so play it again and you will end back on the forefinger you started with.
now for me it makes no difference what finger you tart with because at some point you have to be comfortable starting with any finger..as the example shows the beat or accent is changing, so if you cannot exicute this exercise correctly then you will trip, rake or double hit notes to keep the beat or accent on the dominant finger.

If you just play the eight note scale up then start again you will obviously start on the same finger all the time, or if you play lots of new and following scale just going from top to bottom.
But in practising them up and down in the fashion stated you will change the accent or beat away from the dominant finger.

Once you get used to it you can practise say a C scale up and down then a G scale then a D scale then an E sacle and so one. So now you are changing positions across strings with the leading fingers. Then you can introduce playing the triads, then the arps, then the chord tones for each of these keys, then of course the Minor scales and associated extensions. Then you can play any scale from the lowest note available on the neck to the highest. So say you practise G major, you start on the E on the E string and play

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D ( standard precision neck) and back down. Learn this is all keys, learn it in different ways ( there are lots of note choices to make on the neck, open A or fretted A. C on A string 3rd fret or on the E string 8th fret for example)

All this from internalising your natural tendency to feel one two in life, just by adding the and helps you feel the three with out confusing the brain, and in these exercises it is the brain getting in the way.

Also if when playing triplets you want to play 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 then do so, harness what is natural, because in playing 1-2-3-1-2-3 it makes no difference what finger you finish on, you will just carry on with 1 & 2 & 1 again because there is no need to get back to a dominant finger. It is the favouring of a dominant finger that can tie a lot of players down in their technique when trying to learn new ideas.

Any questions this rasies post a question and i will try and answer.

Sorry for this not being as constructive towards answering the original question, but is it worth it to learn playing with three fingers? My main interest is progressive metal, and I've just been training two finger speed for the faster things. I worked on three finger a bit today and it was 20 minutes of really awkward frustration. Things like playing staccato notes are awkward, and even at slow speeds if I mess up I have take a moment to set myself up to start again. For example, I have to focus on getting one finger on the D string to mute it, while my other two have to be on the A string ready for one of them to go up to mute the D string again.

Overall it's not as fluid at all compared to my two finger technique, and I can't imagine playing James Jamerson or Jaco Pastorius lines with three fingers. Most of the people I see using three fingers are for death metal playing nothing but sixteenth on a single pitch for a long time.


Also to the OP, I see it as better technique to use the rake. I don't see how playing the G string and then the D string would make any sense, other than that. I play the G string and it comes to rest on the D string, right where I would have put it anyway to pluck the D string.

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

Sorry for this not being as constructive towards answering the original question, but is it worth it to learn playing with three fingers? My main interest is progressive metal, and I've just been training two finger speed for the faster things. I worked on three finger a bit today and it was 20 minutes of really awkward frustration. Things like playing staccato notes are awkward, and even at slow speeds if I mess up I have take a moment to set myself up to start again.

It's always going to feel wildly unnatural at first, compared to something you are used to, but the thing is... do you feel you need more speed?

[Definitely]

I use three for triplets exclusively, other than that I use two as I have built up the speed in two that I really don't need three ever, it just fits perfectly in the rhythm for triplets. I'd say three is fine but when practicing you should always try to work on speed with two.

[nysbob]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

Overall it's not as fluid at all compared to my two finger technique, and I can't imagine playing James Jamerson or Jaco Pastorius lines with three fingers. Most of the people I see using three fingers are for death metal playing nothing but sixteenth on a single pitch for a long time.

Generalizations are just that.

I've been playing with 3 fingers for 35 years or so, and can do things that two finger players can't...with the same fluidity.

It's not as "natural" a technique when you're playing primarily 2 & 4 based music, but if you conquer it and make it your own it can be extremely liberating....and considerably less tiring.

[mcglyph]

Speaking of considerably less tiring,
I'm currently working on the four finger technique, and notice my notes for the most part aren't that thick, "bassy" sounding. In the four technique is this a problem?