Scales, Arpeggios, or Technique?

[kore4n_newb]

Originally Posted by tim99

This does not mean that you have a get out of music theory class free card. But, you asked about a very specific musical skill: "I can think of a melody or a short bass solo, but it'll take me a while to find those notes on my bass guitar...". My advice was aimed at helping you with that specific issue.

And it's very good advice, too. But since we're on the subject of music theory, do you think it helps that I've played classical piano for 8 years? I use "played," because during my freshman year in high school, I decided to quit. And by helps, I mean in terms of playing bass guitar the way Flea does.

I guess some extra information about me is that it's been about 7 years since I quit, but currently, I work on classical pieces that I'm interested in. Anyway, I basically know a major and minor scale, and what seem to be arpeggios, although, I never learned the names of anything. Since my piano teacher has always said, "play this, this, and this (piece)."

So I'm hoping, with this additional information, you can give me some extra advice? Of course, this doesn't mean I will discount what you've told me earlier, since to me, any type of exercise/practice is better than playing songs set in stone. Anyway, thanks for the great advice, I shall start practicing again, as soon as finals are over.

[tim99]

Flea got his start in music while in high school. He played trumpet in his school's band, and was considered by his teachers to be one of the best trumpet players they had ever seen. He was subsequently accepted into the Juilliard School of Music for his trumpeting skills.

Originally Posted by kore4n_newb

...do you think it helps that I've played classical piano for 8 years?...I basically know a major and minor scale, and what seem to be arpeggios, although, I never learned the names of anything.

Yes it helps. I took piano in junior high school and played trumpet in junior high and high school. But after two years of piano and six years of trumpet I did not know any theory. I would look at the notes on the 2nd chair and 3rd chair trumpet parts in marching band and play those notes above the 1st chair parts at the end of a song. Not knowing that I was playing a 5th or a 7th of any particular chord. I felt the need to play something above what was written, but did not know how, so I cheated and just played the notes the other trumpets where playing, one octave above.

It is possible that you and Flea and me where/are good at PLAYING a specific instrument while reading music but not know any theory. Note that Flea was ACCEPTED to Julliard, he did not take freshman theory at Julliard.

You have the advantage of a good ear, and the ability to visually understand melody and harmony based on a visual sheet of music. You understand lower and higher notes and because you know musical notes on treble and bass clef, you would pick up chord construction and intervals quickly. But based on what you say, you lack the understanding of being able to explain in english language music theory terms what is going on. This will limit you in being able to discuss what you are doing with other musicians, and will limit you from writing down songs that you write, and will limit you from playing original bass lines from a chord chart.

But, you say that you already have the bass lines in your head. You may, in your head, be way better than many of us. If this is true, you simply need, at this time, to get those sounds out.

I had a friend who had played bass for 10 years. Did not know the names of the notes he played. Did not know the key he was in. Played in a band that played out 5 or 6 times a year. A friend's band bass player was out of town. He went to ONE practice with that band, and played a show the next weekend with 10 songs that where original to that band that he had only worked through that week. If this was a jazz band, and if he was a jazz bass player, and if that band had written out charts, that would not be a big deal. But this was a rock band with no written music. He did it all by ear. Amazing. Most teachers teach music theory and creating bass lines to a published or written out chord progression. I doubt many if any teach how to do that. If you can already do that in your head, you are simply already doing what we learn music theory to be able to do. You have skipped over the music theory directly to what sounds correct. Like my writing this down but not thinking about what is a verb or a subject.

Ok. The problem with "playing like Flea" is that when you decide to learn a new and different song that he plays, you will have to learn some new technique. Many songs he is known for use different techniques that you can not just "do". Once you learn one song, you need to practice it for days or weeks before you can actually play it. Then when you decide to learn the next song, it takes you another week or month to figure out what he is doing and another week or month to be able to play it and another month or two to be able to play it up to speed.

You may start getting bogged down with working on all this technique stuff. You may start getting away from playing what you hear and start banging and clanging around just to show off. If you hear notes in your head, you need to work on playing notes, and you need to work on expanding the vocabulary that you have in your head to work from. For example, learning 24 songs by the Beatles over the next year may give you a better melodic and harmonic vocaulary that will make you a more in demand bass player one year from today than learning 6 Flea songs. I am not saying that you are learning Beatles songs to PLAY Beatles songs. But playing songs by the Beatles or the Stones or Led Zeppelin will give you lots of ideas that you can use in any other type of music.

Buy the CD "Led Zeppelin II". Sign up for 8 bass lessons at your local music store from a BASS TEACHER. It is ok to take from a person who plays and teaches both guitar and bass, but not ok to take from a guitar player who gives bass lessons and does not really play bass. Tell them that you are only taking 8 lessons, that you want to learn to play "Ramble On" by ear, and you want to learn the 5 different positions of the Pentatonic Scale, and you want to make sure that your bass is setup correctly and your fingering and posture are correct so you do not create bad habits or play in a way that will cause pain in the future.

Then, use what you learned in those lessons to play Flea's songs, but play them like the bass part in Ramble On. Pick out only the most important MELODIC notes from Flea's parts without all the extra stuff, and when you later have the technique to "play like Flea", you will actually be playing like Flea, because you will layer the technique on top of a melodic structure. Most people who try to "play like Flea" end up playing like s**** because they just bang around without having a melodic structure to hang all the banging onto.

[tim99]

Oh. Welcome to talkbass. Please fill out your profile. Knowing where you are, the music you like, the equipment you have, the equipment you want helps us to help you. Just the other day I read a thread where a guy was looking for a store near him to tryout a specific bass speaker cabinet, and another guy, seeing his location on his profile, said, "Hey, I live close to you, bring your amp over and you can play through my cab." If you had your location filled out, someone may have already recommended a teacher for you in your area.

[kore4n_newb]

Originally Posted by tim99

Then, use what you learned in those lessons to play Flea's songs, but play them like the bass part in Ramble On. Pick out only the most important MELODIC notes from Flea's parts without all the extra stuff, and when you later have the technique to "play like Flea", you will actually be playing like Flea, because you will layer the technique on top of a melodic structure. Most people who try to "play like Flea" end up playing like s**** because they just bang around without having a melodic structure to hang all the banging onto.

ROFL.

So you're advising me to 1.) learn a few basslines from classic rock, and 2.) do the teacher thing. Or did you mean, one or the other? Your second piece of advice about picking out the melodic structure is very much appreciated. Because I usually listen to Flea's stuff, and it sounds so intricately woven, that I tend to get discouraged.

Unfortunately, those lessons will have to wait at least until summer vacation.

But thanks again, I guess I could keep you up to date on my progress. Oh, and by the way, does anyone know of any good bass guitar teachers in my area?

[Son of Magni]

Originally Posted by tim99

I am always delighted with the exercises that great players say they work on. They seem to be as good at creating exercises to help them with what they are working on as they are at playing their instrument.

+5
How many times can you play a three octave arpegio and still be learning something? I always try to make up something that will work both my hand and my brain. Play sequences like 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6,5,7,6,8 up and down two octaves in major and minor. Or 1,3,5,2,4,6,3,5,7 or try something hard like 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9 etc. And whatever you do, play it musically, not like a machine. Make it groove...

[SullyB]

Hello friends,

In short, find a teacher, pick up some books on theory, and learn songs by ear. I felt like a genius when I was able to pluck out theme from "Eine Klein Nachtmusik" I thought I was a bad-a**. I was mistaken, of course , but I was enlightened as to how scales are used within a melody.

Good luck to you, Kore4n_newb.

SullyB

[tim99]

Originally Posted by kore4n_newb

So you're advising me to 1.) learn a few basslines from classic rock, and 2.) do the teacher thing. Or did you mean, one or the other? Your second piece of advice about picking out the melodic structure is very much appreciated. Because I usually listen to Flea's stuff, and it sounds so intricately woven, that I tend to get discouraged.

I am telling you that you will suck if you spend to much time banging and clanging and not enough time learning songs from bands that have melodic basslines. And I have to tell you that you need to see a teacher because if you have thumb or wrist pain in one year it is now not MY fault. And for the first time ever I am saying just get 8 lessons and work on one song and just pentatonics. People always say "yo I can't afford lessons". I would hope that you could save up or sell something to take 8 lessons that might change their life forever.

[JessRobinson]

Originally Posted by Michael Henson

The deal is really good players WILL know theory, they may not call it theory but you can only get so far without it. Take it from experience-I have reached my peak (w/o theory) and am now struggling to learn it myself...it is a chore...

Amen brother. I've been playing bass for a year, after 20 years of toying around with an acoustic guitar and NOT learning theory. Now I find I can play tab or learn pretty much any reasonable rock bass line verbatim - Money, Sunshine of your Love, Moby Dick, etc. - but if you give me the chord chart of a song I haven't studied for a few hours I'm lost. Okay, it's Am to D to G - what notes do I play!?!

Now I'm finally learning bass clef and the theory end is a STRUGGLE, and it's not nearly as fun as just jamming to a drum beat or my iPod. I suppose that theory is a necessary evil. I just hope I have the discipline to stick with it because I really want to be a good bassist.

[JimmyM]

Great thread. I'm always amazed by the people who ask for advice then either reject it out of hand or pay lip service to it but secretly reject it because it's too hard or because their favorite player "doesn't know theory."

Whether Flea knows theory or not is irrelevant. If he knows theory, that just proves that learning theory works. If he doesn't know theory, that doesn't mean you can be a great bass player by rejecting theory, too. People who don't know theory and still scale the highest heights a musician can scale are by far the exception and not the rule. Or they have something else to bring to the table like superior songwriting skills, good looks, or a boatload of cash to bribe radio programming weasels with.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Great thread. I'm always amazed by the people who ask for advice then either reject it out of hand or pay lip service to it but secretly reject it because it's too hard or because their favorite player "doesn't know theory."

Be amazed JimmyM be forever amazed, bass playing is not supposed to be hard and you're not supposed to devote hours on end refining your craft. It's an easy thing, like breathing, you just do it like all of those bassist you see and hear live and on recording. After all you never see them practice you know.

[Michael Henson]

Amen, brother....I guess I'm doing it wrong though if it's supposed to be that easy. I guess it's true that, "Some have it and some don't."

[kore4n_newb]

Let me just clarify, before you all just black list me here on TB, I never rejected the advice give by tim99, or anyone else. By my mentioning Flea's self-proclaimed lack of music theory knowledge means that I didn't kno what's important and what's not. That doesn't mean I rejected anything, it just means I'm too inexperienced to know any better. And that leads me here, asking for your advice.

[tim99]

I am sorry. Please realize that a few of us have noticed that there seems to be some newbies who come here, ask for advice, get very good advice, and then, instead of appearing thankful, just continue to ask the same questions because they do not get the answer that they can live with, or they simply reject the advice given and ask for a different path. Some of your posts make you appear to possibly be like that.

I admit that I do not understand this post...

Originally Posted by kore4n_newb

ROFL. So you're advising me to 1.) learn a few basslines from classic rock...

...and wondered if you where giving me attitude.

I did not tell you to learn a "few" basslines from "classic rock". I told you that if you have melody notes in your head, and you want to get them out, you would be better off "learning 24 songs by the Beatles over the next year may give you a better melodic and harmonic vocaulary that will make you a more in demand bass player one year from today than learning 6 Flea songs."

And your answer was, and I quote you: "ROFL".

What is up with that?

So, one more time, this thread, like it or not, is about playing NOTES that you HEAR in your HEAD. You will be better off, learning entire songs note for note, from beginning to end, from bands of any time period, that have melodic bass parts, where when you are practicing, your head in engaged in hearning and thinking melodies and notes, instead of, spending the same amount of time, practicing difficult physical techniques, where when you are practicing, your head is coasting, because you are working on finger memory, and working on technique.

We often want to play like our idols, and often do not consider what made them what they are, what they did to get them where they are, and what they would themselves consider to be their musical strengths, and again what they where doing at our stage of development, or what they would recommend us working on. Flea and Eddie Van Halen are admired for their extreme technical ability, but their ability with melody and harmony and blending different styles of music together are their true strengths.

Even if you memorize every Flea song, you will not actually play "like Flea" until you can create, from deep within you, you own melody and harmony, blending musical styles from the past and present, to create something that sounds like you, and unlike anyone else, until you get famous and everyone copies you.

Good luck.

Time it takes.

[Son of Magni]

Originally Posted by tim99

...Select a five fret zone on the fretboard...

Just reading a bit more on this thread. I'm not really good about reading *really long* posts, but there's some good ideas there Tim. Something I used to do that is similar to what you were talking about goes like this. Pick three notes. Only use those notes and play (improvise) something that is both meaningful and melodic. Use rhythm and dynamics. Stay with it as long as you can. It's painful I know. When you are about ready to scream, add two more notes. Now you should feel like there's a world of opportunitys in just those five notes. Stay with that for a few more minutes. Remember, meaningful and melodic, and use rhythm and dynamics.

Make this a 10 minute exercise and do it about three times a week. Choose a different three notes to start with each time.

[tim99]

Not at all the same thing. You can take a spoon and bang on three objects at random and create melodies from remembering the sounds and locations of those objects and notes. But once you have memorized the locations and sounds of those objects and notes you are working on creating original melody, not on getting specific note sounds down onto the fretboard.

The point of moving the starting note of a known melody up and down in a five fret zone is that you are working on placing a series of intervals that are in your head down onto the fretboard, and forcing different locations and fingerings for those notes, so you are constantly in "where is that sound" mode, not "what can I create mode".

I really believe that these are two different things.

I do not want a beginner who reads this thread thinking that they can simply turn on a drum machine that has no harmonic structure, and pick out three notes, and then just doodle away and achieve anywhere near the same result as sitting down and working through 16 notes from the Star Spangled Banner starting on 20 different notes in a five fret zone of a four string bass.

Your idea is not a bad one, I just do not believe that it is another idea to achieve the same result. I believe that it is another thing to work on something else. I actually do something similar. I take five or six notes on two strings, turn on band in a box, and play melodies on those few notes trying to target specific chord tones at each chord.

Hey. I am through giving away my secrets for free. I gotta get back to the woodshed.

One last idea. Before you post a thread on this or any other forum, press ctrl-home to move the cursor to the very first of the message, then press ctrl-shift-end to highlight the entire post, then press ctrl-c to copy your post onto the clipboard. Then if the webpage messes up when submitting your reply, and believe me someday it will, you have your post to paste (ctrl-v) into a new reply window.

[Son of Magni]

Ok, now I understand your exercise more clearly. Two different things. But clearly I didn't mean noodle on three notes randomly...

Originally Posted by tim99

One last idea. Before you post a thread on this or any other forum, press ctrl-home to move the cursor to the very first of the message, then press ctrl-shift-end to highlight the entire post, then press ctrl-c to copy your post onto the clipboard.

Or just hit ctrl-A, ctrl-C

[callus]

Originally Posted by tim99

This does not mean that you have a get out of music theory class free card. But, you asked about a very specific musical skill: "I can think of a melody or a short bass solo, but it'll take me a while to find those notes on my bass guitar...". My advice was aimed at helping you with that specific issue.

DUDE!!! I know you wrote this a few years ago, but just had to say that that is some of the best thoughtful advice i've read on here for people to use there ears. If you don't teach already..you should.. you're good at it. nice one man...