singing and playing at the same time

[hernameisrio]

This is really helpful, thanks guys! I love Level 42, I am in awe of Mark King!

[mixamatchi]

At first, I worked the bass line over, until I could play it forwards/backwards, and then learned the vocal. Now I try to learn them together, as much as possible. Kinda helps with memory, and understanding how the bassline relates to the vocal. There are still songs I can't sing and play, after 20+ years of doing it. Move on. Focus on what you do well. Often the cadence of the vocal, is in conflict with the bass line, and you really should let someone else sing that one. If vox takes away from the bassline, or vice/versa, they both end up sucking. Choose wisely.

[Chaddycakes]

Once you get the basic skill of singing and playing together, you have to remember that you aren't just a guitar player. You're a bass player, we're more important than that, lol! We have to lock with the drummer and establish a groove upon which vocals can sit upon. I make sure that I'm tapping my foot the entire time, or at least during the more difficult, coordinated parts. That way, you're thinking more like a percussionist, with a base rhythm (the tap), a middle (the bassline), and something floating on top (the vocals). As you improve, the parts can get more complicated, but the tapping foot will always be simple and locking with the drummer's snare drum.

[tdoody]

i have been doing both for a long time. i found that if i silently sang the song in my head, as i was learning the bass part, the transition to real vocals was easy. i am the lead singer and now it is very very natural.

[MCS4]

My best advice is to focus on working out how the vocal and bass parts "fit." Rather than just playing the parts over and over, take some time to determine exactly what you should be doing on the bass during specific, key moments of the vocal part.

For example, my band has a new song where the vocal line starts in the middle of a riff, nowhere near the "one." I had trouble fitting the two together until I sat down and figured out the exact note in the riff that coincided with the start of the vocal line. After practicing a few times, I now know instinctively that I need to start singing when I hit that part of the riff.

You can extend that logic to any tricky parts of the vocal line. Since that particular vocal part is very different that the riff below it, I had to work out more of those little "anchors" than I typically need to do. Once I find these anchors I rarely forget them, since they become as much second nature as the bass part itself.

Obviously the next part is making sure to sing the correct notes and to sing them accurately... but I find this to be much easier when I am comfortable with where the words fall in relation to the bass part. It's difficult to describe, but once I have the feel of the parts' overlap together I feel that I can play the line and sing the words on autopilot, so I can free up mental space to worry about pitch.

[pan1k]

Had my first gig singing backups while holding down the bass with a 5 piece rock band. I'm slowly by surely coming along. Thanks for all the useful info guys. My next goal is to try to find an easy cover and be able to song the whole thing.

[Woodstockz]

I had to sing lead at a gig. As nervous as I was, I pulled it off.

- I knew the words to the song really well.
- The bassline during the time I was singing was a little simplified. Mostly played roots, but kept up the rhythm. Played a little more complicated line during the guitar solo.
- On certain parts, like chord changes, I had a target word/note pair. Play this note on this key word. That helped me keep things synchronized.
- It was OK but not perfect, I did rush the song a little.

[MrLenny1]

Yah, Geddy Lee. How does he do it ?

[monkeybass68]

Did u ever try singing & playing with earplugs in? I find it really helps (if u have good plugs). U can actually feel the vibrations of your voice resonating in ur head even if u have trouble hearing yourself thru the PA. I also try to get the bassline down cold before trying to sing with it (once the bass part is 2nd nature, I can kinda go on auto-drive with it & be able to concentrate on singing more).

[mizedog]

This is a great topic. It's sound funny that it would be an issue for drummers and bassists to sing (especially lead). I think part of it is just understanding why there is a disconnect.

Here are some things I've noticed over the years, but are not always true:
Singers often use the 2 and 4 beats as a foundation.
This is evident by how singers tend to clap their hands to a song (it's almost always on the 2 and 4 beats).
Bassists (and drummers) tend to use the 1 and 3 beats as the foundation (depends of course on the genre).

So, when a bassist tries to play (thinking of 1, and 3), and sing (thinking of 2 and 4), it's really like tapping you head and rubbing your stomach at the same time (remember doing that as a kid?).

So, how does one become good at tapping your head and rubbing your stomach?

1. Practice each move separately until it your brain locks it in ("I'm tapping and don't have to think about it." "I'm rubbing, and don't have to think about it.").

2. Once you know BOTH parts really, really well, then try them both at the same time.

3. Since you know tapping and rubbing really well separately, pay attention to the relationship of how they work together, and initiate, or connect to each other (this refers to the "one big rhythm" comment from earlier).

4. Harmony - I find it much easier to sing harmony parts and play bass (did lots of Journey, Boston, Kansas, etc). I was surprised that my bass lines were often the same as a good harmony. Or, at least, they started on the same note. For instance, bass players (in American rock as an example), will often go from the root to the third (or flat third), to the four, to the fifth. Good harmony lines often start on the same note. Mentally, once you figure these relationships out, you can rely on your bass note to get you started on your harmony line. Know how to spell out your chords on the neck.

5. Melody - Point 4 often works, but not as often. I had to sing lead on a song on Christmas Eve where the melody phrase repeated itself, but the second one started a one step up. Lines like that can really be hard to hit until you know it really well. Fortunately, the bass note was exactly the same as the starting note of each phrase. Once I realized that, the two worlds melded and I was able to pull it off without having to think about my voice moving up in half steps to the right starting note for the second phrase.

6. Geddy and Mark are great examples of two people who are really good at melding the "1 and 3 beat" and "2 and 4 beat" way of thinking. But think about "Closer To The Heart". Geddy's vocal line and bass line both descend in similar fashion. If I had to sing that song, I'd latch on to that relationship to help get my voice going in the right place.

Look at this first two lines. See how the melody follows the chords? Luckily, both the melody and bass line are more "1 and 3" centered. But, the bass note comes down after the vocal word at the end of each line:

A G D G A
And the men who hold high places, must be the ones to start
A G D A5 G D A5 G
To mold a new reality, closer to the heart, closer to the heart


It's still a challenge for me, but I can get to the point where I'm doing lead runs under my vocal lines - especially over whole note vocal lines.

[jmverdugo]

It is very difficult for sure, people mention Geddy Lee and King, I'll throw in Sting and Jack Bruce to that group, as somebody else said these guys probably composed the songs thinking that they had to sing while playing bass, It's not unusual to hear G. Lee singing the same melody and notes he is playing at the bass (which is not that hard) think Freewill (obviously Freewill it is not very easy to play to begin with but hope you get the point), on the other hand Sting usually goes for kind of like out of sync melodies an notes for the voice but it seems like it is what feels natural for him while playing bass (Esperanza Spalding does this too) and it also looks like singing some how limited his bass playing, still really good playing IMO, and Bruce does easy parts on the bass while he is singing and then a difficult riffs while he is not singing - think White Room. My point is, it is still very difficult to play bass and sing but if you get to compose the song things get a little easier. Kudos to Paul McCartney though, he is the KING of playing bass and singing - listen Day Tripper, Esperanza Spalding is darn good too.

IMO these are some key points to do while practicing to play and sing:
- Practice with the complete track, hearing all the instruments helps a lot since most of the time you will not be singing the same note you are playing in your bass so hearing the whole chord helps a lot.
- Sing in your head or talk out loud the lyrics while practicing the bass line.
- Start practicing playing in your bass just the root notes.
- Playing with a pick does help a lot.
- Practice, Practice, Practice, I would not over analyze too much, it just take practice, once you know the bass part very good you will see that you will start singing while rehearsing without even noticing.


jm2c

jv

[Troph]

Originally Posted by mizedog

This is a great topic. It's sound funny that it would be an issue for drummers and bassists to sing (especially lead). I think part of it is just understanding why there is a disconnect.

Here are some things I've noticed over the years, but are not always true:
Singers often use the 2 and 4 beats as a foundation.
This is evident by how singers tend to clap their hands to a song (it's almost always on the 2 and 4 beats).
Bassists (and drummers) tend to use the 1 and 3 beats as the foundation (depends of course on the genre).

So, when a bassist tries to play (thinking of 1, and 3), and sing (thinking of 2 and 4), it's really like tapping you head and rubbing your stomach at the same time (remember doing that as a kid?).

Exactly, it's all about the rhythm. Songs with lyrics which blend into the bass line, like many of Sting's compositions, are actually not that difficult to perform. For example, "Walking on the Moon" has a bass line which basically blends back and forth with the vocals, until the reggae section where the two work together. It's pretty easy to handle. No odd syncopations between the bass and the vocals.

Other songs, even really easy ones, can be tricky to nail because of the syncopation between the parts. I had trouble nailing the simple vocals to "Talking in Your Sleep" for that reason for quite a while.

However, it is obviously still possible. Piano players routinely have to play separate rhythmic parts with each hand, which is also difficult to master. At least we don't have to worry about that!

[Bakkster_Man]

I'm just now starting to transition into singing while playing. Fortunately I'm mostly playing root notes locked in with the kick, so I'm not having rhythm issues. What I am having issues with is my bass pressing against my stomach and messing up my breathing and making it uneven. Any advice for handling this? Should my bass just be higher on the strap?

Originally Posted by monkeybass68

Did u ever try singing & playing with earplugs in? I find it really helps (if u have good plugs). U can actually feel the vibrations of your voice resonating in ur head even if u have trouble hearing yourself thru the PA. I also try to get the bassline down cold before trying to sing with it (once the bass part is 2nd nature, I can kinda go on auto-drive with it & be able to concentrate on singing more).

Be careful with this, when your ears are plugged you hear your own voice several cents out of tune from your actual voice.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

My band asked me to start singing a little backup this weekend, which I've never done in 17 years of playing. To tell you how bad I am, I couldn't even play the bassline to Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" without completely dropping the ball, and that line's about as simple and rhythmic as it gets

[4-stringB]

For me, playing bass and singing both seem to involve the same hemisphere of my brain. Playing keys or six string somehow involve one side of my brain, while vocals are on the other side, and therefore not a problem. But sing and play bass is a whole other issue. To me, bass and vocals are so monolithic that they conflict with other, and require major mental gymnastics to coordinate properly.
But, now I do play bass and sing. A little, still getting into the habit, When I first started, I just put a mike on a stand in front of me, to get into the habit of not banging my bass into the stand every time I turned right. While I was doing that, I was humming along, to get both parts of the tune in my head without worrying about the words, That helped me to be in key when I actually did start to sing. Now, when I start learning a new song, the singing is included from the get go, and is much simpler that retrofitting an old song with new parts...Hope this helps a little...

[Aussie Player]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

My band asked me to start singing a little backup this weekend, which I've never done in 17 years of playing. To tell you how bad I am, I couldn't even play the bassline to Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" without completely dropping the ball, and that line's about as simple and rhythmic as it gets

I am with you. After 41 years of playing I still can't do it. My hands are no longer mine and go somewhere else or just stop. Usually I hit wrong notes and lose time to songs I know intimately.
I am not a singer but as a bass player I have never been sacked.

[Chaddycakes]

Originally Posted by Aussie Player

I am with you. After 41 years of playing I still can't do it. My hands are no longer mine and go somewhere else or just stop. Usually I hit wrong notes and lose time to songs I know intimately.
I am not a singer but as a bass player I have never been sacked.

You intimately know the bass line, not the baseline + the vocal line. Not the same thing. I bet with some practice, you could be an excellent background singer or lead singer, as you already have half the equation solved.

[pan1k]

i pose a question for you guys now: If you intend to sing lead / bass on a song youre writing, is it acceptable / recommended to simplify the bassline (maybe even just roots), to make it easier for you to do both. Also, any tips on dos / donts for writing in this matter? I think i may take the dive and sing lead / bass for my next music endeavor.

[dangnewt]

Jive1 posted a great tutorial on singing and playing in the Band Managment thread but it could just as easily been here in technique.


Bassist's Guide to Singing

I have only recently started to sing on key and then only in the middle of a choir with some strong bass singers. I'll occasionally jump in on a chorus with my band but that is a high risk - low reward situation. Fortunately, both guitarists sing well and trade lead and backup duties.

I remain in awe of anyone who can sing and play bass no matter how simple either part might be.

[Chaddycakes]

Originally Posted by pan1k

i pose a question for you guys now: If you intend to sing lead / bass on a song youre writing, is it acceptable / recommended to simplify the bassline (maybe even just roots), to make it easier for you to do both. Also, any tips on dos / donts for writing in this matter? I think i may take the dive and sing lead / bass for my next music endeavor.

Acceptable, sure. Recommended, no. If you can pull it off, then it is that much better. An example of a song most play simply but can be learned to be played completely over time is Eric Clapton's Crossroads. The riff is complex and doesn't fit comfortably with the vocals, but when you can finally coordinate them, it becomes impressive.