So What? It`s killing me!

darkfinger · #1 02-12-2008, 04:14 PM

Don`t know if this is the right place to post this but I really need some help...

I have been trying to learn So what (Miles Davis) and while I`ve got the head figured out, I get lost in the body. From what I gather it`s A Maj. for a while and then up to B flat.....however most of the notes in the A scale work up to a point....but I`m having trouble understanding what is really going on...so if any one would care to share with me that would be fantastic!

I know this is a total newbie issue but any help would be great.

I`m haven`t ever really sat down and dissected a jazz standard before and my theory is pretty half a**ed but I`m trying to learn....

Kobaia · #2 02-12-2008, 07:04 PM

well first off its D to Eb. 16+8+8. its hard to keep track of. if you have a nice drummer listen to his fills, and you'll be able to feel the changes coming.

PocketGroove82 · #3 02-12-2008, 07:56 PM

You don't need to know any theory to solve your problem, darkfinger.
All you need to do is count bars so you keep your place. Or you can sing the melody as you walk for the soloists, that why you know where you are in the form.

bigthemat · #4 02-12-2008, 11:30 PM

do you have a copy of the lead sheet? I like to visualize things, so having the music could be a big help.

As far as not getting lost. You just gotta feel it. I know it is a cliche' sentiment, but it is possible. Like when I am walking a blues I don't even think about it, it is just so ingrained. So with a modal tune like so what, it may be a little hard a first to feel the 16 bars of D, but work with a metronome, play along with some recordings to get the feel of it, and to help build your internal clock.

Bruce Lindfield · #5 02-13-2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobaia

well first off its D to Eb. 16+8+8. its hard to keep track of. if you have a nice drummer listen to his fills, and you'll be able to feel the changes coming.

It was actually written as two modes, with the semi-tone shift - this is where we get the term "Modal Jazz" from - so playing modes rather than chords!

So - there are photos of the sessions for Kind of Blue and you can see the music that Miles has sketched out for the players - rather than writing chord symbols, he has written out the notes of the modes he intended the player to use.

Bruce Lindfield · #6 02-13-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

Or you can sing the melody as you walk for the soloists, that why you know where you are in the form.

That's usually good advice - but on Kind of Blue, there are pieces which have no melody - what do you do then!!??

Also - a lot of people think there is no melody to 'So What' - they hear the 'head' on bass as an intro to the tune!

JimK · #7 02-13-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigthemat

...it may be a little hard a first to feel the 16 bars of D, but work with a metronome, play along with some recordings to get the feel of it, and to help build your internal clock.

For me, getting lost occurred between the last "A" section & the next two "A" sections...that's 24 bars of Dm. Lotta freedom, there.

Sometimes the "B" section's feel is altered...that could be a nice way to break things up.

Jonyak · #8 02-13-2008, 06:13 AM

I play this in a band. We do the head, and then pretty much just improvise off of the Eb D part.

BassmanDk · #9 02-13-2008, 06:15 AM

[quote=JimK;5300577]For me, getting lost occurred between the last "A" section & the next two "A" sections...that's 24 bars of Dm. Lotta freedom, there.

QUOTE]

Same here!!!!

Bruce Lindfield · #10 02-13-2008, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonyak

I play this in a band. We do the head, and then pretty much just improvise off of the Eb D part.

Well - that's what eveybody does - including Miles!!

Smoof · #11 02-13-2008, 07:32 AM

If I'm not mistaken, and I don't want to confuse anyone or make it more confusing than it already is, it's actually D dorian as opposed to D major. D dorian having all the notes of C major played in a different position. This does effect the feel of the song. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bruce Lindfield · #12 02-13-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

It was actually written as two modes, with the semi-tone shift - this is where we get the term "Modal Jazz" from - so playing modes rather than chords!

So - there are photos of the sessions for Kind of Blue and you can see the music that Miles has sketched out for the players - rather than writing chord symbols, he has written out the notes of the modes he intended the player to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoof

If I'm not mistaken, and I don't want to confuse anyone or make it more confusing than it already is, it's actually D dorian as opposed to D major. D dorian having all the notes of C major played in a different position. This does effect the feel of the song. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Err - have you read the thread? I said this several posts ago!

Smoof · #13 02-13-2008, 07:42 AM

My bad. I read that differently

droskobass · #14 02-13-2008, 07:55 AM

Bruce, I don't think you mentioned Dorian specifically. (as far as I can see) So what mode would you guys use over the Eb?

Bruce Lindfield · #15 02-13-2008, 07:58 AM

No, it is Dorian in both cases.

darkfinger · #16 02-13-2008, 08:07 AM

That`s a lot of good advice guys, thanks.
It`s d dorian??? Hmmmm.
Once again thanks guys,
I`m going to go try this stuff out and I`ll let you all know how it turns out.

bigthemat · #17 02-13-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimK

For me, getting lost occurred between the last "A" section & the next two "A" sections...that's 24 bars of Dm. Lotta freedom, there.

Sometimes the "B" section's feel is altered...that could be a nice way to break things up.

yeah, i see what you are saying. I just wait for the drummer to give us a kick into the new section. Or we usually change soloists, making my job easier.

MurvintheWalrus · #18 02-13-2008, 08:24 AM

This is from memory, but the head is that cool melody in the recording is the head. The walking part is in Dmin7 then to Ebmin7. The A part is like 8 bars played twice (repeat) then B part is 8 bars to Dmin (A part) again 8 bars.

Bruce Lindfield · #19 02-13-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MurvintheWalrus

This is from memory, but the head is that cool melody in the recording is the head. The walking part is in Dmin7 then to Ebmin7. The A part is like 8 bars played twice (repeat) then B part is 8 bars to Dmin (A part) again 8 bars.

This has already been covered in the thread - it's modes not chords!

PocketGroove82 · #20 02-13-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

That's usually good advice - but on Kind of Blue, there are pieces which have no melody - what do you do then!!??

If a song has no melody then I usually do the same thing I do on songs with no chords.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

This has already been covered in the thread - it's modes not chords!

LoL. Relax Bruce, you're cracking me up on this one.

Seriously though, most people screw up AABA form because they don't focus when the form starts over, they get lost during the 3 back to back A sections, forgetting which one was really the top, and then they jump to the B section prematurely. This totally screws the soloist, making the him and the group sound terrible, while the piano player cringes and the drummer rolls his eyes.

Then you get fired.

If you wanna get better on AABA form, modal or not, go play some AABA tunes. There are hundreds of them.

I had the same problem on the same tune, which was really bad considering it's a tune where everyone thinks "Bass Player".

Respect the Form.