So When You Solo, How Far Can You Go

[StyleOverShow]

One of the bands I work with is doing a show next Sunday and we rehearsed today doing Jeff Lorber, Yellow Jackets kind of stuff. There were two 'solos' assigned to the bass.

The first I did a standard latin riff suitable to the tune, but the second was a bit funkier and I started to slap and went chromatic, etc. I was into it and if I had a pedal I would have ended with an effect on, high on the fretboard. I was feeling it.

Two things happened:

1. The band didn't follow me. I think they were confused by the rhythm changes (in front and then behind the 'beat').
2. The band seemed a little stunned after that.

I don't think I was that far off but I definitely ramped up the energy and was left high and dry.

So when you solo, how far can you go?
Is there an social norm of etiquette to soloing?
If you're a sideman, can you fall out of character?

[Elemetal]

Speaking on behalf of me. I think taking a solo out of the context of what everyone else would expect you to play is wonderful. Anything that you feel you want to play just play it. Don't think so hard, if you feel right about it do it. My solo's usually are so different and out there and I do things people wouldn't usually do. Now I mean depending on a song. When I play jazz I go where my hearts desire is and I play what I want to play I follow the chord changes, sometimes stretch them sometimes behind or ahead of the beat, the time still flows; if you can't follow me you just weren't following. I suppose transition your finish so it flows back into the head or whatever. It's their fault they left you high and dry. You were pumped they weren't. Who cares.

Theres no etiquette to soloing, do what you feel you want to do.

To your last question, you can never fall out of character because everything you do is coming from your character. Your solo represents what you wanted to do. No one can trash your solo because it's your solo. You can't fall out of character unless you let someone be you for you.

[MarkTAW]

Never forget your goal to entertain the audience. If you have trouble keeping your own band entertained you're going to lose the audience in a heartbeat.

Rent the movie "Back to the Future" for an example of a solo gone awry...

[Dave Muscato]

You guys are thinking too much. Just play what moves you, and don't worry about "entertaining" anyone. A good band should be able to follow you anywhere, or at least, know when to drop out. IME, an audience will appreciate the genuineness of a real solo from YOU more than simply playing what you think they want to hear.

Elemental, your last paragraph nails it for me.

"Back to the Future" = solo gone awry? Man, that has to be one of the most memorable solos in electric guitar history. Awry is the *last* word I would use to describe that solo - in the words of Marty McFly, "I guess you guys aren't ready for that yet."

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

Never forget your goal to entertain the audience. If you have trouble keeping your own band entertained you're going to lose the audience in a heartbeat.

Rent the movie "Back to the Future" for an example of a solo gone awry...

Thot about referencing that scene in the original thread, but no way was it that far out. It was within the context of the tune, PCH, and the second time through I kicked it way up.

The reaction or support from the band, or lack of it more precisely, I've come to think is from their lack of experience backing up a soloist (something that we sidemen do all the time, its our gig). Maybe they were intimidated?

It wasn't crazy, it was just punchy and a more current sound and these are lounge cats.

[jenich CZ]

Hey Style,

what exactly did you play? Percussive solo, bottom finger solo, higer finger solo, tapping solo?

IMO the best way how to approach the bass solos is to play alone or just with a drummer (others rest) . You see , your instrument is in the basement of the sound. You can´t take a bottom and put it over the top...thats why lot of bass solos sound quite crappy...they could be played great by a great musician, but since the top is trying to play the bottom and the bottom is trying to play the top - it will always sound bad.

Our closest band mate is a drummer. Check out drum solos - what is the drummer playing? how does or doesen´t he keep the rythmics and the groove through the solo? What are other instruments playing? Is he really trying to get on the top of the sound? etc.

After you answer those questions, i am sure you will find out the right way. Worst thing is the guitar, that is trying to back-up the bass

[nysbob]

Since bass solos are fairly rare, backing one is a skill that few guitarists and keyboardists have developed. You might help them with a simple rythm arrangement.

That being said, playing a solo doesn't mean you necessarily whip out every technique you know and play a zillion notes. Number one it has to fit the character and context of the tune. I don't mean to disparage what you're doing, but make sure it's appropriate and not simply a technical display. The truly great soloists make it sound effortless.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by StyleOverShow

Two things happened:

1. The band didn't follow me. I think they were confused by the rhythm changes (in front and then behind the 'beat').
2. The band seemed a little stunned after that.

I don't think I was that far off but I definitely ramped up the energy and was left high and dry.

So when you solo, how far can you go?
Is there an social norm of etiquette to soloing?
If you're a sideman, can you fall out of character?

Sounds like they had a bad reaction to a "Wankfest".

1. "In front of the beat and then behind the beat" translates to "Bass player has bad time." Quite frankly, when you're soloing you can play any note over any chord and it will sound fine but Only if you are playing in time. If you're rushing and dragging (call it like it is) then the solo's groove is gone.

2. Yup. And that's why you don't solo on every tune. Understand that jazz is about improvisation but it's also about context. You don't take a slap and two handed tap solo on "Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most". That's the best way to hasten your retirement from playing in a band.

[Chad.mundt]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Sounds like they had a bad reaction to a "Wankfest".

1. "In front of the beat and then behind the beat" translates to "Bass player has bad time." Quite frankly, when you're soloing you can play any note over any chord and it will sound fine but Only if you are playing in time. If you're rushing and dragging (call it like it is) then the solo's groove is gone.

2. Yup. And that's why you don't solo on every tune. Understand that jazz is about improvisation but it's also about context. You don't take a slap and two handed tap solo on "Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most". That's the best way to hasten your retirement from playing in a band.

LOL

I bet Brian Bromberg would. I still cringe when I hear his version of Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers from his album Wood.

Soloing isn't about being impressive or self-indulging. It is about play what makes the music as beautiful as possible. I can't remember a single improvised slap solo that I thought really complimented the tune (I said solo, not groove). With tapping, only a few Vic largely tapped solos come to mind as being really nice (Amazing Grace, maybe a couple others), but even these were in a very specific context. No one wants to hear that.

I learned how to solo from studying classical music. I was looking at Mozart's use of Sonata-Allegro form, and I realized that what made his music so incredible is that it compliments itself. The development sections especially are akin to solos. They take melodic/rhythmic ideas from the earlier sections of the tune and hint at them. There will even be some new material, but even this is blended into the whole. Your role as an improviser (especially during a "solo" as opposed to an entirely improvised work) is generally to take the tune and play it in your own way while keeping it recognizable (read: coherent and unwanky).

Examples of players that are especially clear with their ideas: Phil Woods (alto sax), John Patitucci, Oscar Peterson (piano), Duane Allman (guitar), etc. Without derailing the thread, I think it is interesting to notice that few bass players could be on this list. Not that bass players are unmusical, quite the contrary, but for some reason just can't get it into our heads that playing a musical bassline is just the same as playing a musical solo.

[ryco]

This may be totally obvious, but I thought I'd bring it up. Another important aspect IMO, which was lightly touched on here, is whether there is harmonic backup (keys, guitar) behind the solo or whether it was truly "solo" (with or without drums/percussion).

If the chords are being outlined behind you, then you may want to play more in context with the harmony - in, out and around

If it's just drums then you may want to play in context with tempo - not that you can't explore push and pull.
But you aren't encumbered by harmonic rules because there are none being played to clash against.

If you are totally solo then no rules apply. Taste does, but you should define that - it's your expression. Wank away if that's what you feel like doing at the moment.

[BuffaloBass]

Uh, as my only gig is in an original indie rock band, I'd have to summarize my solos as " fractions of a bar". We ahve one song where I'm given 8 bars twice. Due to the nature of the song, it became a "one string" solo. Airy and melodic seemed to fit best. Had another bassist say he hates solo bass, but liked that. ( actually started tapping out two major chords I was playing on the 21/20th fret, which became mechanically tough on stage )

Key is that it fits in musically and not "sticks out like a sore thumb". Often, it dont work like that. Sounds like you maybe went "too far", as you lost the band. Which , of course, means they couldn't "feel it".

BTW, when they give me 8 bars, you can still feel the pulse of the song in my solo. I NEVER lose the pulse of the tune. Not sayin' it correct, but it feels so to me. I'll even slip ghost notes in to keep the pulse.

At least the drummer should have followed you out where you went , and he could've brought it all back home with grace.

But its hard to know without hearing it.

[EADG mx]

If you band had to stop or adjust, I think you went too far. My 0.02%

[WJGreer]

What makes bass solos different from just about all other solos is that, during a bass solo, the bass is not playing the changes. That means that unless your keyboardist is really hip to that phenominon and marks the form pretty obviously (like Chick Corea does behind bass solos), it becomes extremely easy for the rest of the band to lose the form.

To compensate, I've been dumbing my solos down a little bit recently. For the first couple of choruses, I like to do something that quotes the melody very often - that gives the other guys something to hold on to. If I move away from the melody, I might do something pentatonic that hits the roots often enough to keep the movement of the form grounded. I make sure that, for the most part, my phrases are about two measures long with a little space in between to mark a spot. And, if the form happens to be one that has two distinct parts, I will try to change my solo approach to mark the sections.

Maybe these are all decent rules to follow anyway when soloing. But I have found that keeping things a little simpler and sticking close to the melody helps keep the other guys from getting lost.

Best luck.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

What makes bass solos different from just about all other solos is that, during a bass solo, the bass is not playing the changes. That means that unless your keyboardist is really hip to that phenominon and marks the form pretty obviously (like Chick Corea does behind bass solos), it becomes extremely easy for the rest of the band to lose the form.

To compensate, I've been dumbing my solos down a little bit recently. For the first couple of choruses, I like to do something that quotes the melody very often - that gives the other guys something to hold on to. If I move away from the melody, I might do something pentatonic that hits the roots often enough to keep the movement of the form grounded. I make sure that, for the most part, my phrases are about two measures long with a little space in between to mark a spot. And, if the form happens to be one that has two distinct parts, I will try to change my solo approach to mark the sections.

Maybe these are all decent rules to follow anyway when soloing. But I have found that keeping things a little simpler and sticking close to the melody helps keep the other guys from getting lost.

Best luck.

This post hit on a good point - there is a different musical FUNCTION to the bass solo than to the guitar solo or horn solo or whatever because the foundation of the groove has been lost and the entire texture is necessarily "lighter" - there is not firm ground, and the entire sound has to "float" above the drums. That's why the bass solo in most tunes and song forms comes last - it's a respite from the burning guitar/horn/piano solos and a complete change of character before going into the head out/outro. This isn't to say you can't burn as well, but you're going to sound pretty stupid and self-indulgent if you dont a) steadily build up to it and b)have the right kind of people to interact with you ie, a drummer and pianist that know how to comp/build. If you are lacking in either a) or b) in any way, then it just doesn't work to go buckwild. It's the nature of the bass solo.

[JimmyM]

WJ's post hits a lot of good points, though I don't at all consider what he's describing as "dumbing down." I call it "building momentum." It's like a movie...if the movie started with the chilling climax scene, what would you do for the other 85 minutes?

[StyleOverShow]

Playing on the 1 and 3's is one side of the beat, playing on the 2 and 4's is the other.
Playing on the down of 1 and the back beat is yet another.

I was playing in time. I was playing with time, repeating a pattern on one side of the beat and then the other.

Soloing is difficult work and I'm still working on it.

[MarkTAW]

I wonder if the singer in the band attempted a vocal solo like your bass solo, whether or not you'd be looking at him like he grew a second head...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by StyleOverShow

Playing on the 1 and 3's is one side of the beat, playing on the 2 and 4's is the other.
Playing on the down of 1 and the back beat is yet another.

I was playing in time. I was playing with time, repeating a pattern on one side of the beat and then the other.

Soloing is difficult work and I'm still working on it.

It's definitely not easy to solo competently. I still struggle with it after 30 years. But one thing that helps me get over is the amount of feeling I play with...there is a time to apply science to what you're doing, and there is a time to play what you're feeling. When a solo doesn't go over, it's because there's too much science and too little you. BB King can play 5 notes in his solos, but you feel it because it's all him. It's OK to put on dazzling displays of chops with a lot of odd concepts you learned about in music school, but the best soloists put their souls out there and give 120% of themselves and will floor you with the amount of heart they play with long before you notice their chops.

[phat daddy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

It's definitely not easy to solo competently. I still struggle with it after 30 years. But one thing that helps me get over is the amount of feeling I play with...there is a time to apply science to what you're doing, and there is a time to play what you're feeling. When a solo doesn't go over, it's because there's too much science and too little you. BB King can play 5 notes in his solos, but you feel it because it's all him. It's OK to put on dazzling displays of chops with a lot of odd concepts you learned about in music school, but the best soloists put their souls out there and give 120% of themselves and will floor you with the amount of heart they play with long before you notice their chops.

Heart is where it's at. I've been soloing for many years, probably almost as long as I've been playing bass because I played a lot of "solo" instruments like oboe and guitar before I played bass so I took to it quickly, and it's only been in the last 4 years or so that I've really felt and understood the role my solos take. I used to use a solo as a technique fest and lost the band, the crowd, and most unhappily the groove in the process. A couple of years ago I saw one of my favorite local players take the most feeling solo-- he just closed his eyes and played a beautiful improve melody-- and seeing that solo changed part of my life, the part that's spent soloing.

Now when I solo I make sure I'm playing the bass-- the essence of the groove and melody-- in every solo. It can't sound like a scalefest or slapfest anymore-- it has to sing. It's actually a lot easier than hashing out long-studied techniques-- but you have to find a passionate place from within your soul to be able to accomplish the mode of thinking it requires. A beautiful bass solo has the humility to reign itself in in order to protect the groove AND the melody.

Humility-- that's the place I solo from now. No egoes to confuse, no false responsibility to show off. Hell, yeah.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by phat daddy

Heart is where it's at. I've been soloing for many years, probably almost as long as I've been playing bass because I played a lot of "solo" instruments like oboe and guitar before I played bass so I took to it quickly, and it's only been in the last 4 years or so that I've really felt and understood the role my solos take. I used to use a solo as a technique fest and lost the band, the crowd, and most unhappily the groove in the process. A couple of years ago I saw one of my favorite local players take the most feeling solo-- he just closed his eyes and played a beautiful improve melody-- and seeing that solo changed part of my life, the part that's spent soloing.

Now when I solo I make sure I'm playing the bass-- the essence of the groove and melody-- in every solo. It can't sound like a scalefest or slapfest anymore-- it has to sing. It's actually a lot easier than hashing out long-studied techniques-- but you have to find a passionate place from within your soul to be able to accomplish the mode of thinking it requires. A beautiful bass solo has the humility to reign itself in in order to protect the groove AND the melody.

Humility-- that's the place I solo from now. No egoes to confuse, no false responsibility to show off. Hell, yeah.

Wow, way to put it, Phat! This should be stickied.